Dr. André O. Hudson—Strengthening Access for Science Education with a focus on Happy Individuals at RIT

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Ensure that the ecosystem is is
1 where we we care about people,

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right to be not.
And the care doesn't mean that

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you you don't have the whole
people accountable, or you don't

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have rigor, or you don't have
expectations or you don't have

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crucial or difficult
conversations.

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In that sense, care just means
that it's your everyone has a

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duty.
Everyone has a responsibility,

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everyone has an own as an agency
to do something that is called

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to make for their classroom,
their departments, their office,

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their college, their institute,
a better place.

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And what if and some of them in
this kind of Micra, like for

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example, during finals week, we
have some scholars and a club

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and they basically wrote post it
notes all over the college.

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They wrote post it notes all
over the college.

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And this put post it notes
everywhere you can.

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And it was like, you got this
right, the confidence, so forth

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and so on that that to me is
like that to me is care.

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Like when a student comes to me
and says, you know, I was, I put

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something in the trash and I
noticed that there was a lot of,

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you know, recycle.
Hey, this is Michelle Mislowski,

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Managing Director at Carter, and
you are listening to Edu

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Welcome, welcome.
Welcome to Add up Accelerated

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Excellence, the podcast for the
advancement of educational

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excellence and equity.
And I'm your host, Jacob Easley,

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the second PHDPMP.
And today's guest is really

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going to fill the well about the
role of science, science

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education.
And we have a renowned guest who

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is Dean for the College of
Science at Rochester Institute

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of Technology, Doctor Andre
Hudson.

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Andre, will you?
I'm going to be well, definitely

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welcome to the show, Andre.
And will you introduce yourself

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for giving voice to your name as
only you can.

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And what is top of mind right
now for you in your sphere at

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RIT?
Thinking about the importance of

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science education.
Thanks Jacob.

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It's a pleasure to join your
podcast and connecting with you.

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So thank you for the lovely
introduction.

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My name is Audrey Hudson.
I'm a scientist as you, as you

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mentioned, but some more
importantly, I'm a father and a

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husband and I think community
member so forth.

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And one of the things that you
mentioned in terms about science

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education.
And I think for me, science

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education is holistic, it's
diverse and it's necessary more

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this time more than ever.
And here are the reasons why I

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think irrespective not to
software RIT or just science as

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a vocation or profession, but I
think we have a lot of currents

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will have a lot of emergence
issues, some of which we don't

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even know what they are or what
they will be.

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But part of our job as a
scientist and academicians and

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educators, it's not so much to
educate as it to inspire the

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next generation of talents in
that sense.

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And, and so I think the problems
that we have now, whether it's

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climate change, plastic
pollution, antibiotic

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resistance, you know, future
pandemics, whatever they will

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be, right, outbreaks and
endemics, etcetera, etcetera,

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what we do now is going to
impact and affect how we respond

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later.
And so I think science is it's

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like a chess game.
You know, you kind of need to

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play the long game, right, to
ensure that you have the talent

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pool in order to do that.
And part of that talent pool in

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terms of it needs to be holistic
in not only does the the skills

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that you need to do it, but you
also have to be mindful of the

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diversity of talent that is
there and not necessarily

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phenotypic diversity could be
diversity of thoughts, right?

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And for, for individuals to
bring in their lived experiences

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and their backgrounds at their
culture, at the heritage and who

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there is a person to ensure that
those individuals have a seat at

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the table.
Because you know, if you don't

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have diversity, they like to
say, all we're doing is learning

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more and more, more and more
about less and less.

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And, and so diversity of
thoughts is just as important as

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phenotypic diversity are more
important in in some sense.

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But I think the whole enterprise
of science needs to be super

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intentional and strategic.
And I think that's part of the

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education mission is not only to
educate you about the pathways

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and the enzymes equations and
you know that kind of the roads

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kind of learning, but how do how
do you spark a young scholars

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mind too?
So like, wow, I'm interested if

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that's how do you spark someone
who's a scientist but is

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interested in outreach, is
interested in politics, is

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instructed in ethics.
All of the issues are all of the

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points that they're kind of
radiate out that makes science

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work.
Well, you know, as a, as a

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scientist myself, well, I love
being at the bench.

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I for science to work well, I
don't think we need everyone at

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the bench, right?
We need the ethicists and the

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policymakers and the, you know,
the, the, the individuals who

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work on to fund and make
decisions on how a science is

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going to go.
And so I see science as super

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holistic, not just disciplinary,
so to speak.

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Oh, so Andre, thank you for
that.

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As you were talking, 3 words
came to mind sort of framework

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is this holistic approach is
looking at the, the biological,

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the social, because we know that
social context, but also

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environmental, environmental.
And I think those all dovetail.

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And we know that we talk about
diversity.

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Communities are diverse.
So it's good to know if you talk

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about, let's say the pandemic
may affect one community

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differently than another
community, I think you're right.

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You definitely need to think of
have a holistic approach and

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have multiple people at the, the
table.

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Because I, I remember I was
watching on Instagram just a

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couple of days ago during the
outbreak of the AIDS epidemic,

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folks were saying we thought it
was a white man's disease.

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And then it hit the black
community and, and the speaker

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said we weren't ready.
Yes.

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No.
So a holistic approach, I think

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definitely is important.
So let's let's talk about you

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for a bit and then we're going
to jump right into the wonderful

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work that's happening at RIT,
Rochester Institute of

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Technology.
So you were born in Jamaica.

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Yeah.
And you came to the States or

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your family migrated to the
States while you were a

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teenager, a young teenager.
So what values and lessons

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growing up in Jamaica shaped who
you are today as a scientist, an

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educator, a leader?
And I'm going to add this a

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family man, because you led with
family first.

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That's a fascinating question.
I think for me, I think the

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culture in Jamaica, albeit, you
know, very homogeneous in terms

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of the makeup of the people, so
to speak.

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I think one of the things that I
gather it was kind of diverse in

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terms of the, the support that
we got and the, and, and one of

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the things early on that I got
from my family, particularly my

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grandma is about this, this hard
work is this kind of the

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concepts of hard work.
And she used to have this

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wonderful saying that I actually
share with my students all the

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time, which is, you know, she
used to say, I had to when I

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grew up, I had to make milk out
of coffee, which means that, you

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know, you're going to find a way
out of no way.

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You have to go going to be
entrepreneurial.

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You're going to, you know, some
people might say squeeze blood

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out of a rock or, or something
like that.

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And I think that this kind of
hard work and persistence

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certainly has guided the way I
lead this guy to the way I

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approach science, this kind of
the way I, I kind of my

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attitude, so to speak.
And it's fascinating because I

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always share with my colleagues
that's when I interview

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prospective candidates for, you
know, bearing positions.

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One of the things I'm fighting
is that so much how smart you

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are or how accomplished you are.
I'm trying to gain some insights

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about your attitude because
things are not going to be

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always perfect.
You're not going to have

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everything that you need at the
table.

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But you know, are you the
scientist that if you don't have

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equipment a right, you could
cobble, you know, the equipment

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that you have access to, to
gain, to garner the, to answer

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the question that you want to
answer and still be productive,

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right?
And are, are you able to

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basically pivots in kind of real
time so forth?

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Like what is your attitude when
when things are not at all?

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And I think that's, that's what
I got from growing up in, in,

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in, in Jamaica is just more than
anything else is the attitude of

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success, which I think when I
migrated to the United States,

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right, that was a difference in
terms of culture, certainly

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speaking different in terms of
access, difference in terms of

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opportunities and so forth.
This week, it's almost like I

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was primed and ready to go and I
saw I, I think I have this kind

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of concept of just no excuses,
right?

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Things may not be optimal,
things may not be preferred, but

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my mindset is that they're also
not impossible, right?

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Or not impossible.
And so how do I still keep that

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attitude in order to do what I
want to do, what I need to do,

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what I wish to do and when?
It kind of feel like a not

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optimal environment for the most
part.

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And for different people, that
means different things right

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there.
So it's not kind of, you know,

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what is suboptimal to me might
be optimal to someone else.

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What is optimal to me might be
suboptimal to someone else.

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But at the end of the day, you
look at how productive you are,

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how entrepreneur you are, what
your wife said is in terms of

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what you need to get done.
And I think that's growing up in

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Jamaica.
That's what I got.

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And I got that from my family.
I got that from seeing my

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grandma raised 9 kids just on
her own and how all nine of her

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children were well educated,
very, very smart, very

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productive members of society.
And how she did that was through

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hard work and persistence.
And I think that's kind of like

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in my core I'm so to speak.
Yeah.

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Thank you for that.
Thank you for that.

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And I, I just want to wonder as
someone who's who immigrated,

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how did your sense of identity
or how was it shaped or shifted

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once you became a bit more
integrated into the US fiber?

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Sure.
I think for me, I'm migrating

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here.
As I said, I was kind of

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ignorant of just kind of like
race and politics and kind of,

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you know, those kind of things
that, you know, someone who was

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born and kind of raised in
America missed for my wife, you

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know, who was born here and
raised here right now.

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Her perspective is way different
than mine, right?

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Because her mother and her
family are were born here and

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experienced things.
And it's almost like, you know,

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this epigenetic or kind of
things that are transferred from

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generation to generation.
I really didn't, I didn't really

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experience that, so to speak,
but I, I, I think acclimating

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was certainly did take some
time, right?

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And so the person I am today was
way different.

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So if you talk to people who
know me when I write, I was very

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quiet, right?
My accent was a little bit more

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pronounced.
I didn't, I wasn't out there.

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I wouldn't have kind of thought,
even though I had my thoughts

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and so forth and so on.
I was more of kind of somewhat

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introverted, so to speak.
And to be honest with you, I

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00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:56,560
really really did not want to
come to America.

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00:13:56,640 --> 00:13:58,880
I mean, I really, really thought
it.

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00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:02,320
And initially when I came here,
one of my plan is how to

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00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:05,840
convince my parents to send me
back home should I get in

229
00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:07,480
trouble.
And she just sent me back home

230
00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:10,640
because initially, like, I
didn't like it because I mean,

231
00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:15,960
Jamaica was like I ever say my
formative years at my friend

232
00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:18,240
group.
So played football, which in

233
00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:21,800
America people call soccer ice,
ice, ice, this, this football to

234
00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:26,040
be cricket set to speed outside.
And, you know, if I wanted to

235
00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:28,080
mango, I could just go climb the
tree and get back.

236
00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:31,520
Sometimes you, you, you're
hungry and thirsty and you just

237
00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:33,720
go get a coconut.
And you would just get kind of

238
00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:39,960
this kind of like a life that is
not the kind of rat race, not

239
00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:44,880
the kind of hustle and bustle.
It was kind of or chill and laid

240
00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:47,680
back and so forth.
And so which is a cold different

241
00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:52,240
vibe than America, especially
when we moved here, we moved to

242
00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:54,240
New York City.
It's not like we moved to Iowa

243
00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:58,200
or, you know, Idaho or some
other state that is kind of or

244
00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:01,240
chill, but moved to the city in
the Bronx, which was like, well,

245
00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:03,960
but the good thing about it is
that there were so much of a

246
00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:08,920
contingent of immigrants, so to
speak, from different cultures

247
00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:11,080
and different islands and
different places, right?

248
00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:14,240
So it was kind of melted pot.
So after you come here and get

249
00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:16,800
acclimated, it was like, wow, I
could still go to the store and

250
00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:20,520
get all the Jamaican produce,
the Jamaican things, and you

251
00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:22,600
could still cook your Jamaican
meals at home.

252
00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:26,320
So it was kind of like that home
away from home, so to speak.

253
00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:29,600
But there is nothing like the
land of your purse, right?

254
00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:32,400
There's nothing like the air
that you breathe at hearing the

255
00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:35,840
waves crash on the rocks and you
know, the, the, the, the

256
00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:40,000
hearing, the, the persistent
patois in, in, in your, in your

257
00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:43,080
brain and so on.
So it's, it's funny because

258
00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:47,440
every time I meet and interact
with this scholar from Jamaica,

259
00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:50,040
for example, we just immediately
reconnect.

260
00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:53,960
And it's, we don't connect about
the major or anything else.

261
00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:55,680
It's about the culture and the
music.

262
00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:58,440
And we just start talking in
patois and everyone could

263
00:15:58,440 --> 00:15:59,960
understand this.
And people look at those like,

264
00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:02,600
what language are you speaking?
And it was just, it's just so

265
00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:05,560
fascinating, right?
How, how, how much someone's

266
00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:09,080
culture impacts who they are in
terms of their well-being.

267
00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:11,680
It's it's, it's something often
not overlooked.

268
00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:13,640
It's something that is often
overlooked, I should say.

269
00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:17,800
Well, you know, you talk about
well-being and I have a a good

270
00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:21,520
friend of mine who's from
Jamaica, still lives in Jamaica

271
00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:24,800
and he was visiting New York.
This is New York City.

272
00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:28,360
So we're walking on the sidewalk
and I says, Johan, you're going

273
00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:31,400
to have to keep up with me and
move over.

274
00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:35,920
I said as he walk a little
faster.

275
00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:39,000
He says why I'm not in a hurry.
Yeah.

276
00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:42,640
Yeah.
And so, but what happened was I

277
00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:46,400
said, OK, the folks around you,
in their minds, they're not in a

278
00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:48,640
hurry either.
It's just that the rhythm and

279
00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:53,640
pace of walking is faster and a
bit more congested.

280
00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:56,360
So what happens is because of
the slow pace that you're

281
00:16:56,360 --> 00:16:59,880
walking, folks are getting
irritated because I can hear

282
00:16:59,920 --> 00:17:06,280
them behind me walk up behind me
and say so.

283
00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:09,760
But I think, but I think that's
important because place and

284
00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:13,520
well-being matter.
So the studies that have shown

285
00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:20,720
that recently arrived immigrants
have lower rates of health

286
00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:26,119
disparities even though they're
coming from low economic

287
00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:31,360
condition, but within one
generation they sometimes have

288
00:17:31,360 --> 00:17:36,280
the exact same, they have parity
of heart disease, high blood

289
00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:41,040
pressure as as the American
population within one

290
00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:44,000
generation.
Generation wow interesting wow,

291
00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:47,760
I never knew that.
Thank you for educating me and

292
00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:51,040
and I should show that to Jacob
that, you know part of me

293
00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:53,560
growing up in Jamaica in terms
of shipping point.

294
00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:57,040
I always say like an I'll cut
from the cloth of nanny of the

295
00:17:57,040 --> 00:18:01,320
Maroons and the Bob Marley's and
you know the Marcus Garvey that

296
00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:05,840
he did just something in my in
in who I am as a person about

297
00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:12,160
standing up for for people and
giving back in certain ways that

298
00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:15,640
you know are not beneficial.
So it's not a kind of a

299
00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:19,480
self-imposed quid pro quo right.
It's some something bigger than

300
00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:24,560
I am in and my sister, who is my
sister Keisha Hudson, who is the

301
00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:27,840
chief public defender of the
city of Philadelphia, is a great

302
00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:29,680
example of that.
And she's my Shiro.

303
00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:33,840
And it's just fascinating how
unlike we are.

304
00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:37,200
We're different in terms of our
styles and approaches.

305
00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:39,880
And I mean, she's a lawyer, a
scientist and all of that.

306
00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:43,040
But when it comes down to
fights, when it comes down to

307
00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:46,800
standing up for people and we
like we, you know, you know,

308
00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:50,360
it's, it's the, it's the roots
of Marcus Garvey at Bob Arland's

309
00:18:50,360 --> 00:18:53,320
culture, which is like, you
know, you get up and stand up,

310
00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:55,520
right?
You just don't sit by and idle

311
00:18:56,640 --> 00:18:59,720
and, and at Skylark, as we would
say in Jamaica, right?

312
00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:01,320
You do something about it,
right?

313
00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:05,240
And the repercussions may not be
beneficial, but you know, those

314
00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:08,640
individuals pay the price for us
to have the opportunity today.

315
00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:14,080
And so I think this kind of
protest kind of being and who

316
00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:17,360
you are as a person, it's
standing up for your core, as I

317
00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:20,800
might assured with you that
there's some things I'm willing

318
00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:24,040
to rock on and there's some
things that I'm not going to

319
00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:25,600
move on.
And those things are very, very

320
00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:27,040
important.
Yeah.

321
00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:31,800
And I think really that it's not
protest for the sake of protest,

322
00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:36,200
but what I'm, what I'm
interpreting that is, is protest

323
00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:39,720
for what we may call communal
well beings.

324
00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:42,400
Exactly.
So it's altruistic, altruistic

325
00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:44,840
protesting, right.
But you know, I'm not doing it

326
00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:47,720
just to protect me or protect my
vocation or so forth.

327
00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:50,600
I'm thinking about playing of
class in my head, right?

328
00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:53,920
I'm thinking about the scholars,
you know, 20 years from now, the

329
00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:57,600
college 20 years from now, the
you know what the vocation is 20

330
00:19:57,600 --> 00:19:59,360
years from now.
So there have to be some kind of

331
00:19:59,360 --> 00:20:03,400
a stewardship and, and, and to
sometimes, you know, you have to

332
00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:05,720
take residents and sometimes
it's you're, it's not

333
00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:08,080
comfortable and sometimes it's
hard, right?

334
00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:11,600
But you're thinking about the
folks before me and before you,

335
00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:15,360
right, who kind of went through
the trenches just for us to have

336
00:20:15,360 --> 00:20:16,800
the opportunity.
And I think it's.

337
00:20:17,360 --> 00:20:20,120
I think it would be a disservice
to them and disrespectful after

338
00:20:20,120 --> 00:20:24,400
time in a sense for us, it's
just kind of like, OK, go ahead

339
00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:25,880
and whatever, let's move on,
right?

340
00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:30,880
I I, I don't think I, you know,
they your blood, sweat and tears

341
00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:36,240
should mean something.
So Andre, you, you attended and

342
00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:38,280
graduated.
We like to say graduated from

343
00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:43,040
because when we talk about
HBCUS, yes folks will often you

344
00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:45,440
know, the joke is you attended,
but did you graduate?

345
00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:49,640
Yes or yeah?
Virginia, Virginia Union

346
00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:55,400
University, then that was your
undergraduate experience, and

347
00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:58,440
there was something that
happened with regard to your

348
00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:02,120
research there that changed
everything for you.

349
00:21:02,120 --> 00:21:05,280
So can you describe that
experience in relation to

350
00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:08,560
nurturing your scientific
proclivities?

351
00:21:09,120 --> 00:21:12,000
Sure.
So while I'm the students at

352
00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:16,360
Virginia Union University, I had
this wonderful mentor and I

353
00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:19,760
think this is where and I shared
this story right after I tell

354
00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:22,800
this story, I tell another story
that in terms of representation,

355
00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:27,240
I would think I didn't know it
at the time, but when I went to

356
00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:30,200
Virginia University, it's one of
the best decisions I ever made

357
00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:33,840
for two reasons.
Number one, I thought I, I think

358
00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:37,280
the education and the experience
was fantastic, but more

359
00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:38,920
importantly, I met my wife
there, right.

360
00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:43,160
So which obviously wouldn't the
probability of that happening

361
00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:46,520
outside of us being at the same
institution at the same time is

362
00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:51,680
probably zero, so to speak.
But I think what Virginia Union

363
00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:55,480
provided for me was this self of
confidence in terms of like, you

364
00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:59,160
know, when you go through four
years and you know, almost every

365
00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:01,840
single professor looked like you
or were immigrants like you,

366
00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:04,920
they have this value of pure
impact that comes with it.

367
00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:08,320
And it's fascinating that I
really didn't think about it.

368
00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:12,440
Or he wasn't in the parents to
me in real time until I got

369
00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:15,120
older, so forth.
And kind of like, wow, that was

370
00:22:15,120 --> 00:22:18,520
so inspiring to me.
So while at the Virginia Union

371
00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:22,080
University, you know, my, my
initial intention was to go get

372
00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:26,240
a biology degree, go on to
medical school, you know, you

373
00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:28,360
know, kind of the traditional
routes and so forth.

374
00:22:28,360 --> 00:22:31,480
And had this wonderful
undergraduate mentor.

375
00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:35,720
His name is Doctor Anthony Madu.
You know, he was came from

376
00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:39,320
Nigeria and went on and got a
PhD and you know, was a

377
00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:41,520
microbiologist and did the
fantastic work.

378
00:22:42,120 --> 00:22:45,280
But Doctor Madhu, one of his
thing was also building the

379
00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:48,880
pipeline.
And so he applied to the NIH

380
00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:51,600
along with colleagues to get a
grant from the NIH called the

381
00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:55,160
Marc U star program.
You know, ARC was minority

382
00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:58,960
access to research careers,
undergraduate students training

383
00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:02,560
in academic research.
So ARC U star rap program in the

384
00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:05,960
Marc program provided
opportunities for them to

385
00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:09,400
recruit students who wanted a
research career.

386
00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:11,640
And so part of that experience
was you're going to do

387
00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:14,560
undergrad, your research, you're
going to do internship, you're

388
00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:17,200
going to take specialized
classes to prep you for Graduate

389
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:20,160
School and so forth and so on.
So I got that was selected as an

390
00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:23,240
ARC scholar.
And once selected as an ARC

391
00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:26,040
scholar, I was just fascinated
with this whole thing of

392
00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:28,200
research, right?
And I never even took the

393
00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:29,960
empath.
I was even interested in medical

394
00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:34,040
school after I got hooked by the
research bug, so to speak.

395
00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:39,400
But in Doctor Maddu's lab, I, I
found myself in terms of

396
00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:43,320
confidence.
I, I, I, I, I found a voice, so

397
00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:45,840
to speak.
I found that science could be a

398
00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:49,880
great advocate not only for a
career, but science could be a

399
00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:52,800
way for me to express myself
just like an artist would it, it

400
00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:56,160
would be no difference than I, I
looking back, it was no

401
00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:58,400
different than Nas growing up in
Queens Bridge, right?

402
00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:01,200
And someone said, Hey, Nas,
here's the life in the studio.

403
00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:05,480
Go right for me, that lab
experience was my microphone

404
00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:09,760
that like booths in order for me
to express myself and also think

405
00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:12,800
while that union I I I pledged
Alpha by Alpha fraternity

406
00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:15,920
incorporated down the chapter
the greatest fraternity in the

407
00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:18,120
world.
That might be the truth here.

408
00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:23,880
And I think that experience also
guided in shaped who I am not

409
00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:29,200
only as a leader in the sense,
but as a person in, in, in terms

410
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:33,120
of doing things bigger than
yourself, thinking about

411
00:24:33,120 --> 00:24:35,480
community, thinking about
community service, thinking

412
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:40,160
about the future, thinking about
bigger things other than undone

413
00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:44,400
yourself, right.
And so I think that HBCU

414
00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:47,840
education is not just an
education, it's an experience.

415
00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:52,880
And if you look at my trajectory
routes after HBCU, going on to a

416
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:56,160
large land grant institution and
my current job and my current

417
00:24:56,160 --> 00:25:00,480
role at RIT, those are three
different types of institutions,

418
00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:03,400
3 different settings, three
different models.

419
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:07,640
And so it actually my HBCU
experience actually helps me

420
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:11,440
every single day as not only as
a person, but as a leader.

421
00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:16,240
So when I see a students, a
first generation students, I, I

422
00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:18,400
know what that means.
When I see a student who having

423
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:21,640
to work three jobs, just the way
it ends meet, I know what that

424
00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:23,960
means.
When I see a student who, you

425
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:27,120
know, they don't have a cadre of
support, they don't have their

426
00:25:27,120 --> 00:25:30,520
tribe, so to speak, I know what
that feels like, right?

427
00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:34,080
And so we could be certainly
reactive in some sense, but it

428
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:37,480
affords us and affords my
thinking and my leadership start

429
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:41,480
to be proactive in ensuring that
we put in place mechanisms and

430
00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:45,120
structures and support for those
scholars who need that type of

431
00:25:45,120 --> 00:25:46,800
support.
It should be successful.

432
00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:49,560
So I thank every day, I thank
God every day for my HBCU

433
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:51,840
experience.
It was, it was fantastic.

434
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:57,520
Thank you.
Before we transition into

435
00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:02,120
talking about RIT and your work
there as a Black student

436
00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:09,040
entering the STEM spaces, how
did that HBCU experience help

437
00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:12,600
you to deal with the idea of
belonging?

438
00:26:13,120 --> 00:26:16,920
Because you, you, you brought up
a good point going to Virginia

439
00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:20,240
Union University, though it was
a different environment for you

440
00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:22,760
coming from Jamaica and now here
in New York and now you're going

441
00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:25,760
to Virginia.
You mentioned that the

442
00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:27,800
professors looked like you.
I.

443
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:33,040
Mean I think that that's very,
very important I think what that

444
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:34,680
experience gave me was
confidence.

445
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:38,400
And so when I went on to, when I
went out to Rutgers, right?

446
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:41,240
And you know, in my cohorts,
there was a lot of

447
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:43,640
underrepresented students, so to
speak, right?

448
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:46,560
I found that I was primed and
ready to go.

449
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:50,880
And throughout my education, I,
I, one of the things about, I

450
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:53,760
think my style and the
mentorship that I have mentors

451
00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:56,760
that I have is that we've always
kept in touch, right?

452
00:26:56,760 --> 00:27:00,200
And so I still talk to Doctor
Madhu, I still talk to my PhD

453
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:02,240
advisor.
I still talk to the people who

454
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:06,080
have kind of guided and helped
me on the way.

455
00:27:06,120 --> 00:27:09,160
And there were times when, you
know, you just like, I don't

456
00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:12,040
know what this is for me, right?
And you will call those people.

457
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:15,920
And their job was not to
criticize or to judge you or to,

458
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:19,800
you know, you know, to kind of
chastise you.

459
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:22,520
Their job was to be like, it's
Andre.

460
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:24,480
He's fine.
He's academic, He'sing.

461
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:27,000
He's just part of the process.
You're fine.

462
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:28,400
You got the skills, you got
this.

463
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:32,800
So the sense of confidence and
support that is needed is super,

464
00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:34,560
super important.
And Jacob, I'll tell you why

465
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:38,840
that's important when we have
first generation students,

466
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:42,080
right?
My son just finished his first

467
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:45,200
year of college.
If the model support my wife and

468
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:48,000
I support provided for him,
right?

469
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:51,240
And we're, we're not, he's not a
first class student, but we have

470
00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:53,880
been through the system or we
work in the system.

471
00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:57,160
We're both educators.
And so we could actually see

472
00:27:57,160 --> 00:27:59,680
where the land mines are or
where the hiccups are going to

473
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:02,520
be and kind of coach him and
kind of guide him through the

474
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:06,800
process, so to speak, right.
And when I talked to some of our

475
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:09,120
first Gen. students, I said,
what is a conversation like when

476
00:28:09,120 --> 00:28:11,680
you call home and you tell mom
that you're struggling or dad

477
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:14,080
that you're struggling on your
guardian, that you're struggling

478
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:17,120
with mother web edge with this
academic, with this personal,

479
00:28:17,120 --> 00:28:19,000
whether it's mental Wellness,
whatever it is, right?

480
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:24,600
And the feedback that they're
often say or the theme of the

481
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:28,360
feedback is suck it up, don't
waste my money, right?

482
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:31,120
You know, you just kind of do
it, stop complaining.

483
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:33,880
So for that, so, and it's
because that's not necessarily

484
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:36,960
bad advice, but it's because
those parents really did not go

485
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:39,480
through the process in order to
understand, right?

486
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:44,520
So I think going through an HBCU
is almost like I was not first

487
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:47,560
generation PhD student because I
saw it, right?

488
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:51,480
I tell the story all the time
and every time I tell it, I get

489
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:56,120
emotional.
When I first joined RIT, there

490
00:28:56,120 --> 00:29:00,000
was a custodial colleague who
would come by every day.

491
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:05,400
And he will, you know, do you
know, take care of the buildings

492
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,720
and fantastic colleagues.
And one day he said to me,

493
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:12,960
Andre, you know, we talk.
And because I play music in my

494
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:15,080
office all the time.
And so he will stop by and we

495
00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:18,120
will talk about music and we
just, I just develop a, a, a, a

496
00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:20,720
relationship.
And one day he said, I would

497
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:24,120
like to if I could bring my son
to meet you, right?

498
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:25,600
And I said, sure, no problem,
right.

499
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:28,240
And I said, you know, take bring
him to campus someday, let me

500
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:30,680
know.
And I take him to my class and

501
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:32,800
take him to the lab.
He kind of a Shadowman

502
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:34,200
experience for the day.
I said no problem.

503
00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:40,800
And after we did this, you know,
a fantastic head and, you know,

504
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:43,520
after the experience, he
profusely thanked me.

505
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:45,960
He said thank you very much for
meeting with my son.

506
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:48,040
And I said, you know, no
problem, happy to do it.

507
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:50,080
And then he would just profusely
thank me.

508
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:52,200
And I was like, I do this all
the time.

509
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:54,840
Like I don't, I, I didn't get
why it was such a big deal.

510
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:58,120
It's almost like par for the
courses, like, you know, kind of

511
00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:01,240
experience.
And he said he, he, and this is,

512
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:03,920
this is the moment I learned why
representation acts.

513
00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:09,120
He said it was important for my
son to meet you, not just to

514
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:13,440
meet you, but I want him to know
that he could get a job at RIT

515
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:18,400
and not do what I do.
And that, like, I mean, if you

516
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:23,240
could hit me the head with a
hammer, I was like, my

517
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:26,560
expression was one of like shot.
I was like, wow.

518
00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:33,560
And that to me was for me why
representation matters, right?

519
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:37,880
It's because when you grow up in
a diverse, when you're educated

520
00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:41,480
in that first setting and when
you see things, right, not every

521
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:45,160
white person is racist.
Not every black person is a

522
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:49,040
criminal, not this kind of
stereotypes that we have, right?

523
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:50,720
Right.
It kind of erodes at that.

524
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:53,880
And This is why diversity in
education matters is because

525
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:58,480
students need to see that.
They need to see, I had a friend

526
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:01,120
that was Axe and I ate over the
house and they were wonderful

527
00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:04,040
people.
And so in the future, if and

528
00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:07,000
when you get pulled over by the
cops and that person happened to

529
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:08,920
be a representative phenotype,
right?

530
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:12,520
You're, you're not, your
assumptions are kind of eroded

531
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:15,640
in order for you not to have
certain emotions or certain

532
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:19,320
assumptions about certain people
just based on experience, right.

533
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:23,520
And so that to me why
representation matters.

534
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:26,120
And it's something that I took
with me along the way.

535
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:30,720
Like, wow, when I was at
Virginia Union, I, I, I felt why

536
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:32,360
having a black professor
matters.

537
00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:36,880
When I was at this, I felt why
I, so when I was here, I sofa.

538
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:40,760
So it's kind of how shapes you.
The lived experience, which is

539
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:43,920
part of a huge part of the
education mission, is that we

540
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:48,240
need folks to basically share
their lived experience because

541
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:52,360
that's also a part part of the
education process, not just the

542
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:54,280
didactic things and the academic
things.

543
00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:57,160
And the textbook thing, so to
speak, is the lived experience

544
00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:00,320
is also a huge part of what we
do in education or should do in

545
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:03,280
education.
I, I agree with you and I think

546
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:06,520
we talked about, I mentioned and
I had conversations with other

547
00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:10,440
guests on different episodes
about this idea of the lived

548
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:15,800
experience and how it shapes how
we see the world and how we

549
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:18,400
engage in policy.
Big P or small P.

550
00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:25,960
It's often really hard to
extract a concept or idea when

551
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:27,760
you haven't had the lived
experience.

552
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:31,800
Just moving out of faith that Oh
well, so and so told me this,

553
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:37,000
except if it's a very highly
emotional story and you get to

554
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:41,560
connect with the individuals who
are involved, that can sort of

555
00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:44,560
shapes it.
But otherwise, when conditions

556
00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:48,680
are so distant from your own
living experience, it's really

557
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:52,560
hard for folks sometimes to get
behind support for those issues.

558
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:54,600
Yes, well said.
I totally agree.

559
00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:58,440
So I want to talk about your
research because I think it is

560
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:02,400
fascinating as a scientist.
It spans biochemistry,

561
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:09,120
microbiology, enzymes, amino
acid metabolism, and plant

562
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:14,480
associated bacteria.
So for listeners outside of the

563
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:19,280
scientific world, what's
fascinates you so much about

564
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:24,320
this work?
Yeah, I think it's two things,

565
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:25,960
right?
It's always been a very, very

566
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:29,080
curious kid.
And I, my mom will tell me it's

567
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:31,160
like when I was growing up, I
was a baby, she said.

568
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:36,200
I never, I never met a baby that
asked so many questions, right.

569
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:39,520
And my, my, my, this asked
questions.

570
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:44,640
And I remember when my son was,
he got a lot younger then he's

571
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:47,640
now he's 19.
He must have been 5 or 6 and he

572
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:50,360
came to campus with me.
And when he was little and he

573
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:52,880
was out of school or not feeling
well, I and I had to teach.

574
00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:55,360
I will, or to, you know, work, I
will bring him to work with me

575
00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:57,680
and I will take him to the
classes and take him to my

576
00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:02,040
lecturers.
He was sitting there and he, he

577
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:05,720
came home and he goes, he, he
told, he told my wife two things

578
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:08,760
at one occasion.
He said, he said, mom, dad

579
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:10,080
really doesn't do anything at
work.

580
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:14,080
He said he, he, he meets with
the big kids.

581
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:17,000
That's what he used to all the
students and he plays with his

582
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:19,360
laser.
He talks to them and he's played

583
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:21,040
with that laser.
I was like, no, I'm, I'm, I'm,

584
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:24,080
I'm buttering right?
I, I was like, that's his

585
00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:27,000
concept of me working was right.
Just talking to the big kids,

586
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:29,400
internal leaders.
And then one fascinating story

587
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:31,080
and he said, Dad, what do you
do?

588
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:33,440
Right.
And I said, well, I teach.

589
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:35,080
And he said, yeah, but what else
do you do?

590
00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:37,320
And I said, well, I asked
questions, right?

591
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:41,239
I, I, I asked how, why, when,
where, if it's not kind of asked

592
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:44,920
fundamental questions, then I
design, you know, experiments to

593
00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:47,719
answer those questions.
And then I tell people about

594
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:49,120
them.
And I tell people that what I

595
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:50,840
thought and what the results
are.

596
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:52,199
And, you know, publishing is
over there.

597
00:34:52,199 --> 00:34:54,600
So he goes, you get paid to ask
questions.

598
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:57,840
And I said, yeah, I said, that's
basically what a scientist loves

599
00:34:57,840 --> 00:34:59,200
it.
They ask questions and so forth

600
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:00,880
and so on.
He goes, I ask a lot of

601
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:03,320
questions, how come I don't get
paid right?

602
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:07,920
So, so he was advocating for
himself in there.

603
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:12,560
But I, I think, I, I think I'm
in part of the science that I am

604
00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:15,560
interested in with this goes all
the way back to my undergraduate

605
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:18,360
that he said, because my first
undergraduate research project

606
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:23,120
was basically going around
Richmond, VA at farmers markets,

607
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:27,880
collecting or buying fruits,
farm fresh farm produce and

608
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:31,720
basically tried to study the
bacteria that's our interacting

609
00:35:31,720 --> 00:35:35,000
with those fresh farm produce
and to find out if they were

610
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:37,240
pathogenic or not.
And, and the reason is, is

611
00:35:37,240 --> 00:35:39,760
because you know, like if you
eat lettuce and tomatoes and

612
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:42,440
kind of other kind of thing,
typically you don't cook them to

613
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:45,080
eat them or fruits.
You just eat them, right.

614
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:46,360
And so basically wanted to do
that.

615
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:50,480
So I always kind of, that's
where kind of this concept of

616
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:53,440
kind of microbial plant
interaction came through.

617
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:56,840
And then, you know, a sequencing
technologies improved and you

618
00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:58,920
could apply genomics and so
forth and so on.

619
00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:02,000
And when I went out to Graduate
School, the department that I

620
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:04,600
got my PhD from was the
Department of Plant Biology and

621
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:07,800
Pathology.
And although the work was mostly

622
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:11,120
enzymatic than kind of
biochemistry base and amino

623
00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:14,080
acid.
And my PhD, the lab that I got

624
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:17,960
my PhD from under the direction
of Doctor Tom Lustek was on

625
00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:22,000
amino acid set.
So basically how to study and

626
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:26,800
figure out how organisms
metabolize or make certain amino

627
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:32,080
acids, so to speak.
And so the kind of core training

628
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:37,440
and in that set, I mean,
interestingly, my PhD work

629
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:43,560
discovered how plants make this
one amino acid essential.

630
00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:45,960
So I mean, humans can't make it
called lysine.

631
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:51,400
And I figured out how plants
make lysine through obviously a

632
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:53,880
collaborative effort with my
colleagues, etcetera.

633
00:36:54,240 --> 00:36:58,280
But then it turned out that some
bacteria make lysine the way

634
00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:01,000
plants make glycine, which was
unknown at the time.

635
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:05,880
And then in bacteria, it turns
out that the pathway to lysine

636
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:09,720
is also important for cell wall
by synthesis and a cell wall by

637
00:37:09,720 --> 00:37:11,520
synthesis.
One of the targets for

638
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:13,800
antibiotics is cell wall,
bacterial cell wall.

639
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:16,960
And so that's just how the kind
of this kind of amalgamation of

640
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:20,920
just kind of experiences from
way back in my forwarding fears

641
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:25,400
and how I kind of connected it
later then as I a part of

642
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:27,960
scientists is like almost like
every five years or so, you have

643
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:29,720
to kind of reinvent your
toolkit, right?

644
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:33,560
I mean, 0 methods become old and
candidate at work.

645
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:37,600
So you're going to have to kind
of learn learning techniques and

646
00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:39,560
tracks, right?
So one of the techniques that I

647
00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:42,960
learned was extra
crystallography or structural

648
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:46,520
biology, which is, you know, if
you want to find a target for an

649
00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:49,120
enzyme that is essential, that
could be a drug, you first need

650
00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:53,080
to kind of lock and pee, right,
to find out what the the inside

651
00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:55,720
of the lock looks like.
So you could design A fake key

652
00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:59,960
that will open the door, which
is the kind of a connotation of

653
00:37:59,960 --> 00:38:03,960
how drugs work, right?
In terms of drug binding to some

654
00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:05,840
enzyme that it prevents the
enzyme from working.

655
00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:11,080
So important, in addition to the
science, I just find it a

656
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:14,480
fascinating way to inspire
students because one of my

657
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:18,240
methods that I used to teach is
a Socratic method in both the

658
00:38:18,240 --> 00:38:24,120
lab and then the lecture, which
is I tell my students all the

659
00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:26,760
time, I don't want to create
short water cooks, which means I

660
00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:29,280
don't want to provide you all of
the information on all of the

661
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:31,240
steps.
And all you have to do is follow

662
00:38:31,240 --> 00:38:34,960
the recipe, get a product.
I want you to think about why am

663
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:37,480
I doing this step?
What's what's the point?

664
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:40,480
Because if something goes wrong,
95% of what we do is

665
00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:42,120
troubleshooting.
This didn't work.

666
00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:45,400
OK, let me figure out why do I
have to tweak over here in order

667
00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:48,200
to get the different results in
troubleshooting and so quick and

668
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:51,760
so on, right.
So I think the science certainly

669
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:55,320
integrates into the way I teach
and the way I teach certainly

670
00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:58,800
integrates the way I do science
all the way from if I design A

671
00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:01,240
laboratory exercise, one of the
first things I think about is

672
00:39:01,240 --> 00:39:04,400
how can I make this project
based and inquiry based?

673
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:08,440
So maybe we could do, you know,
embark on a journey and

674
00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:10,320
depending on what we find, let's
publish it.

675
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:14,680
And it's a class, right?
And so a lot of I have several a

676
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:17,800
good College of publications
that came out of just this kind

677
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:21,160
of Socratic in Group based
method of teaching of training

678
00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:24,240
them how to be a scientist right
now, just kind of lecturing to

679
00:39:24,240 --> 00:39:26,640
them or professing to them.
But basically get into think.

680
00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:30,400
So one of my one of my favorite
ancestor students says, even if

681
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:33,120
I know, I kind of feel a little
bit like that's a fascinating

682
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:35,440
questions.
I don't know, let's go find out.

683
00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:37,120
Why don't you find that and come
tell me.

684
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:40,080
And then like kind of, and
that's the reason why it's

685
00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:43,000
important is because I think
part of the mess about being a

686
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:46,200
professor or being in this space
is that students or scholars

687
00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:49,680
also think you know it all or
you just perfect being like

688
00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:53,120
you're this kind of God like
structure.

689
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:55,840
And and so sometimes like, I
don't know, I had that miss.

690
00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:58,840
I don't know the question or no.
I don't know what this compound

691
00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:01,640
is, but I know it's hydrophobic.
And it's like, how can you tell?

692
00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:03,080
And it's like, OK, let me tell
you, right?

693
00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:04,760
Because the structure speaks to
me.

694
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:08,200
And so, oh, wow.
So he's like, you know this and

695
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:10,320
getting away from this
memorization, kind of rote

696
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:13,920
learning into and conceptualize
and kind of thinking.

697
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:16,600
And I think that it's a
fascinating way to inspire.

698
00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:20,080
Science is a very, very
fascinating way to inspire

699
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:23,160
talent You like.
It's because it's not perfect.

700
00:40:23,720 --> 00:40:26,600
You learn about persistence.
You learn how to communicate.

701
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:30,880
You learn how to be, you know,
into like you, you learn how to

702
00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:34,040
just basically circumvent and
you learn how to be concise and

703
00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:37,720
you learn how to plan a her
intentionality and you learn

704
00:40:37,720 --> 00:40:40,000
humbleness like we're you're
going to get a lot of

705
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:43,840
rejections, a lot of declines
and a lot of stuff.

706
00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:45,960
It's a very, very hard thing to
do.

707
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:50,160
So part of our mission, and my
mission is to callous the

708
00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:52,120
students before they get into
the Greek world.

709
00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:55,760
So here is the reviews from the
peer, the journal, right?

710
00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:58,000
Look how harsh they are.
This is what you're going to

711
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:00,960
get, right?
So, but persist, let's revise

712
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:04,040
and resubmit, right?
Hey, I just got this grant, but

713
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:06,400
did you know that I got 5
rejections before the grant was

714
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:08,560
actually funded?
Wow, I didn't know that.

715
00:41:08,720 --> 00:41:10,840
Oh, here are the reviews.
Wow, I didn't know that's open

716
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:13,000
and so on.
So the part of training and

717
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:16,880
mentorship, I think it's not
just, you know, helping students

718
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:20,040
get to the finished products,
it's taking them on the journey

719
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:23,440
to the finished products so they
understand the whole enterprise

720
00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:25,400
of science from soup to nuts, so
to speak.

721
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:28,680
Oh, I really appreciate that.
I'm glad you brought out those

722
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:32,200
words about you didn't say this
one, but resilience and

723
00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:36,240
curiosity, inspiration, social
impact, problem solving,

724
00:41:36,240 --> 00:41:39,480
communication.
So again, this idea of holistic

725
00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:44,400
approach science, but I like the
idea of building, you know,

726
00:41:44,720 --> 00:41:50,720
building up the calluses a bit
so that rejection and pitfalls

727
00:41:50,720 --> 00:41:59,360
are not so banning exactly.
Thank you for listening to the

728
00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:02,880
Ed Up Accelerated Excellence
Podcast, and we would like to

729
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:06,000
share an opportunity for
educators to contribute to our

730
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:09,280
XE Listening tour this week.
Take time to listen to a

731
00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:12,560
community member regarding their
educational excellence and

732
00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:15,960
equity experience because we
believe that by listening, we

733
00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:19,560
unlock the engine for powerful
educational transformation.

734
00:42:19,720 --> 00:42:24,040
Share your insights via
voicemail at Ed Up xe.com, and

735
00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:26,880
your comments may be shared on
air with the podcast.

736
00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:30,200
That's the XE Listening Tour at
edupxe.com.

737
00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:35,640
School leaders, have you ever
hit a point in the school year

738
00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:39,520
where you're pouring into
everyone else, but realizing no

739
00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:44,200
one is pouring into you?
That's exactly why the National

740
00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:48,800
School Leaders Conference exists
July 13th through 15th in

741
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:52,640
Orlando.
NAESP is bringing together

742
00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:55,920
principals and school leaders
from across the country for a

743
00:42:55,920 --> 00:43:00,320
few days of learning,
connection, engagement, and real

744
00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:02,880
world conversations about
leadership.

745
00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:07,400
It's more than a conference.
It's a chance to step away from

746
00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:11,800
the daily demands, recharge your
mindset, and return to your

747
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:15,440
school with fresh ideas and
renewed purpose.

748
00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:19,680
Because strong leaders deserve
spaces to grow too.

749
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:24,720
Learn more at NAESP
conference.org.

750
00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:45,680
That's NAESP conference.org.
So we are speaking with Doctor

751
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:48,440
Andre Hudson, who is Dean for
the School of Science at

752
00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:50,960
Rochester Institute of
Technology.

753
00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:55,880
So I I, I really appreciate your
strategic plan and I want to

754
00:43:55,880 --> 00:44:01,640
hone in on a couple of things.
One your initiatives or goals is

755
00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:04,080
happy people.
Yes.

756
00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:08,560
Can you unpack that for us?
Because to be to be honest, I

757
00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:12,480
don't know if I've seen a
strategic plan that lists happy

758
00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:16,240
people as a goal, right?
It's I think thank you very

759
00:44:16,240 --> 00:44:20,320
much.
So well our colleagues and kind

760
00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:23,880
of put together the plan.
Obviously it's not my plan, it's

761
00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:25,600
it's a colleges plan.
And so it's up.

762
00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:28,240
We're collaborative and
partnership with our colleagues.

763
00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:31,560
One of the things that was on
the front of my mind is as we're

764
00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:34,600
developing the kind of kind of
our minds is this, this concept

765
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:38,760
of well-being, right?
And the environment, I think

766
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:43,160
should be reflective of the
people that are operating the

767
00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:45,240
environment and the state of
mind, right?

768
00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:50,360
And the concept of Jacob, what I
was constantly thinking about is

769
00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:56,080
this that this theme of, you
know, can really a cardiologist

770
00:44:56,080 --> 00:44:59,360
take care of a patient with a
heart problem if the

771
00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:03,680
cardiologist is not in that
space in order to do their best

772
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:07,520
work, right?
And since we're professors and

773
00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:10,040
vocationalists, a lot of times,
obviously, you know, we are

774
00:45:10,240 --> 00:45:13,120
hyper focused on the student
experience, it hyper focused on

775
00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:16,720
getting the job done and, you
know, all of the work that comes

776
00:45:16,720 --> 00:45:19,920
within that space.
But if the people who are

777
00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:25,960
basically doing the work in
order to get to the products are

778
00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:29,840
not well or not content, then
it's going to be either

779
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:32,600
impossible or harder in order to
do that work, right?

780
00:45:33,240 --> 00:45:36,240
So the thing about happy people,
like, I think it's, it's more

781
00:45:36,240 --> 00:45:39,600
guiding on the rather than
actually doing specific things.

782
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:42,800
Is this this intentionality
behind it, right?

783
00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:46,080
Which is first of first of all,
like, you know, maybe people are

784
00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:47,880
not happy because they don't
know information.

785
00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:50,720
So it's our job to be more
transparent and communicate

786
00:45:50,720 --> 00:45:54,280
better, right?
How can we alleviate insides,

787
00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:56,320
right?
How can we ensure that our

788
00:45:56,320 --> 00:45:59,000
colleagues take advantage of
opportunities, right?

789
00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:01,520
So, for example, one of the
things I've been championing is

790
00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:05,160
that I have to lead by example.
So if I want our colleagues to

791
00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:09,560
take time off and relax and
enjoy their summer, then I have

792
00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:14,320
to lead by example, right?
You know, I've learned that,

793
00:46:14,320 --> 00:46:18,480
hey, sometimes things could
wait, like when I send emails

794
00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:21,040
and so forth and so on.
So even though I don't expect a

795
00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:25,200
response in real time, right?
You know how you communicated

796
00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:27,880
that maybe to the colleague
that's getting it, maybe put

797
00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:30,120
pressure on that, that they have
to respond.

798
00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:34,040
So all of those things.
I think the intentionality

799
00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:38,880
behind happy people is gonna, I
also think it reflects this

800
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:41,840
notion that we care as a
leadership group, as a college,

801
00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:43,720
we care about one another,
right?

802
00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:47,120
And this kind of peer support
and so forth.

803
00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:51,560
And you know, when, when things,
you know, this concept of like

804
00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:53,320
once a man and twice a child
that.

805
00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:57,560
And so as we get older in our
professions, and if we have our

806
00:46:57,560 --> 00:46:59,960
parents that are still living or
loved ones that we need to take

807
00:46:59,960 --> 00:47:01,960
care of, right?
There's going to come a point in

808
00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:05,600
time where we need to have a
culture that it's OK to take

809
00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:07,600
care of your loved ones.
It's OK to do this.

810
00:47:07,600 --> 00:47:10,560
So it's obviously need to go
through the process and so forth

811
00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:12,520
and so on.
But I think it's this value of

812
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:14,680
care, right?
And I think it's very, very

813
00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:17,320
important not only for
recruitment, but for retaining

814
00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:19,440
talent, right?
Just to show that to be care.

815
00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:23,080
So I think happy people, but I
think joy and contentment and

816
00:47:23,080 --> 00:47:26,560
happiness is somewhat of a
personalized experience, so to

817
00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:29,120
speak, right?
It could be eternal or external

818
00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:31,400
in terms of the stimuli that
makes people happy.

819
00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:35,280
In that sense, I think the
culture, the environment is

820
00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:38,640
very, very important since for
most vocations, we spend more

821
00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:40,920
time at work than we do at home,
right?

822
00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:44,040
Or more time with our families.
And so the work family is

823
00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:47,040
actually a family.
So how can we ensure that our

824
00:47:47,040 --> 00:47:51,920
colleagues or happy or content
or we have that dialogue going

825
00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:53,320
there?
How can we do things that they

826
00:47:53,360 --> 00:47:56,200
feel comfortable approaching us
and they don't feel like it's a

827
00:47:56,200 --> 00:48:00,520
burden to to do the things that
they need to do outside of work

828
00:48:00,520 --> 00:48:03,840
or maybe inside of work in order
to make them content, so to

829
00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:06,600
speak?
So this is very interesting.

830
00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:12,480
So to me it begs the question of
have you come up with a formula

831
00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:18,680
for what you might call
workplace or learning place for

832
00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:22,720
students having right?
I don't think I've, I never

833
00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:25,080
thought about it that way, but
what I think about is that it's

834
00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:28,200
a very mutualistic and very
symbiotic relationship, right?

835
00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:31,800
And so for example, right, it's
if the students could gain that

836
00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:34,400
the staff and the faculty are
stressed, they're going to be

837
00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:36,360
stressed, right?
Or they're going to worry,

838
00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:38,400
right?
It's it's, if you look at the,

839
00:48:38,440 --> 00:48:41,960
the, the whole ecosystem, right?
It did ensure that the ecosystem

840
00:48:42,080 --> 00:48:46,640
is, is 1 where we, we care about
people, right?

841
00:48:46,640 --> 00:48:49,080
To be.
And the care doesn't mean that

842
00:48:49,080 --> 00:48:51,800
you, you don't have to hold
people accountable or you don't

843
00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:54,680
have rigor, or you don't have
expectations or you don't have

844
00:48:54,680 --> 00:48:56,680
crucial or difficult
conversations.

845
00:48:56,680 --> 00:49:00,600
In that sense, care just means
that it's your everyone has a

846
00:49:00,600 --> 00:49:03,000
duty.
Everyone has a responsibility.

847
00:49:03,440 --> 00:49:08,560
Everyone has an old as a agency
to do something that is called

848
00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:14,160
to make so their classroom,
their departments, their office,

849
00:49:14,520 --> 00:49:17,280
their college, their institute,
a better place.

850
00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:19,560
And what if and some of them in
this kind of micro, like for

851
00:49:19,560 --> 00:49:26,040
example, during finals week, we
have some scholars at a club and

852
00:49:26,600 --> 00:49:29,600
they basically wrote post it
notes all over the college.

853
00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:31,800
They wrote post it notes all
over the college.

854
00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:33,800
And this puts post it notes
everywhere you can.

855
00:49:34,240 --> 00:49:38,840
And it was like, you got this
right, be confident, so forth

856
00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:41,640
and so on.
That that to me is like that to

857
00:49:41,640 --> 00:49:44,440
me is care.
Like when a student comes to me

858
00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:48,200
and says, you know, I was I put
something in the trash and I

859
00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:52,800
noticed that there was a lot of,
you know, recycle items,

860
00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:58,240
recyclable items, and you know,
the not in the correct place

861
00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:01,520
that bothers me.
That tells me that the student

862
00:50:01,520 --> 00:50:05,760
cares, right?
And so like now I think also the

863
00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:08,160
students, we have to create a
culture where the students feel

864
00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:10,280
comfortable to come to my office
to share that with me.

865
00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:13,880
Or they could trust that I'm
going to respond, or they could

866
00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:16,200
trust that I'm going to make
myself available, right.

867
00:50:16,200 --> 00:50:19,120
And so one of the things, one of
my styles, Jacob, is I do

868
00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:21,960
rounds, I get out of my office
and I walk around and, you know,

869
00:50:21,960 --> 00:50:23,720
I say, what's up, young scholar?
What are you doing for the

870
00:50:23,720 --> 00:50:27,480
summer?
And that to me, I get more

871
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:30,760
actionable things as a Dean than
I do if I have a formal meeting

872
00:50:30,760 --> 00:50:32,840
with them, right?
Because I'm going into the

873
00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:34,840
airspace, I'm pumping into them
in real time.

874
00:50:35,120 --> 00:50:37,120
And I said, what's going on?
What's you know, what's up,

875
00:50:37,320 --> 00:50:38,480
right?
And they said, well, yeah, I'm

876
00:50:38,480 --> 00:50:40,040
having this.
I thought, let me connect you

877
00:50:40,040 --> 00:50:41,360
over here.
Let me connect you over here.

878
00:50:41,360 --> 00:50:42,400
Oh, wow.
Thank you for sharing.

879
00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:45,000
And but while, I mean, I've
solved the problem in real time,

880
00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:47,000
then I'll connect with the
department head or connect with

881
00:50:47,000 --> 00:50:50,360
the requisite office to kind of
help them navigate start what

882
00:50:50,360 --> 00:50:52,640
kind of things, right?
And I think the culture of

883
00:50:52,640 --> 00:50:55,760
well-being and care, right?
Ultimately it needs to people

884
00:50:55,760 --> 00:50:59,480
that are more content where
we're happy, ultimately always

885
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:01,720
more happy, right?
And I think that's it's a

886
00:51:01,720 --> 00:51:02,920
culture.
It's more of a kind of a

887
00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:07,000
cultural kind of connotation.
Not that we people weren't happy

888
00:51:07,040 --> 00:51:09,560
before, they were content
before, but I think putting in

889
00:51:09,560 --> 00:51:12,320
the plan showed that we were
intentional and strategic.

890
00:51:13,440 --> 00:51:15,920
And it's at the top of our minds
in terms of something that we

891
00:51:15,920 --> 00:51:19,000
need to be cognizant of.
Yeah, that that sounds like.

892
00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:21,800
And I'm putting words.
In your mouth now intentional

893
00:51:22,080 --> 00:51:25,800
communal stewardship.
So it's.

894
00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:28,800
Cultivating this idea that.
We're all in this together as

895
00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:33,520
stewards for a place of
happiness.

896
00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:37,680
So.
You've you've also been.

897
00:51:38,360 --> 00:51:42,520
Ardent champion for
accessibility, particularly

898
00:51:42,520 --> 00:51:45,000
within the area of sciences
science.

899
00:51:45,880 --> 00:51:49,680
So can you explain what are some
of the programs you have

900
00:51:49,680 --> 00:51:52,960
currently that speak to this
idea of access?

901
00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:59,440
I know you engage different
communities like the LGBTQIA

902
00:51:59,440 --> 00:52:02,480
community, students of color and
so on and so forth.

903
00:52:02,880 --> 00:52:06,360
So and that's largely on the
student support side.

904
00:52:06,600 --> 00:52:08,600
So what does that look like?
Yeah.

905
00:52:08,600 --> 00:52:12,200
So I think it's.
You know, I think in order for

906
00:52:12,200 --> 00:52:15,320
anyone to thrive, irrespective
of who they are as a person,

907
00:52:15,320 --> 00:52:18,640
their backgrounds, you know, who
they want to become, right?

908
00:52:18,640 --> 00:52:21,400
I think they, everyone needs to
be their authentic stops, right?

909
00:52:21,680 --> 00:52:26,240
The burden of trying to operate
in a system that you have to

910
00:52:26,240 --> 00:52:31,600
hide who you are or not feel a
sense of belonging or welcoming

911
00:52:32,320 --> 00:52:34,520
you are right.
It's just it you just can't

912
00:52:34,520 --> 00:52:36,240
thrive.
You just cannot be your best

913
00:52:36,240 --> 00:52:38,720
self rich.
And so how can we erode at those

914
00:52:38,720 --> 00:52:41,960
obstacles in order for students
to feel comfortable our Staffs

915
00:52:42,000 --> 00:52:45,880
or colleagues in order to feel
comfortable of who they are,

916
00:52:45,880 --> 00:52:49,160
right.
And I, I think championing, you

917
00:52:49,160 --> 00:52:52,200
know, one of the first decisions
I made when I became Dean

918
00:52:52,600 --> 00:52:57,280
interviewed actually at the time
was to appoint a director of DEI

919
00:52:57,320 --> 00:53:00,040
initiatives or access and
belonging, as we now call it.

920
00:53:00,480 --> 00:53:02,760
And that was very, very
important to me because I think

921
00:53:02,960 --> 00:53:05,440
it, it shows that not only the
commitment, but it showed that

922
00:53:05,440 --> 00:53:07,680
things are coordinated and
things are not kind of happy

923
00:53:07,680 --> 00:53:10,960
stance, right?
And so Doctor Leah Michelle and

924
00:53:10,960 --> 00:53:14,120
her colleague, Doctor Jack
Ludwig, who leads that office or

925
00:53:14,120 --> 00:53:15,760
the, or those initiatives,
right?

926
00:53:16,080 --> 00:53:20,120
We're very, very intentional
about making sure that our

927
00:53:20,120 --> 00:53:24,480
students could operate in a
sense of in, in, in this kind of

928
00:53:24,480 --> 00:53:27,960
culture and space of this, who
they are and they're, there's no

929
00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:30,600
judgment.
There is no one that's going to

930
00:53:30,600 --> 00:53:32,480
make fun of them.
There is no one that's going to

931
00:53:32,480 --> 00:53:34,600
treat them any differently and
so forth, so on.

932
00:53:34,600 --> 00:53:37,600
And if those things come to my
attention, those things are

933
00:53:37,600 --> 00:53:42,240
addressed very, very rapidly and
they're rectified in, in

934
00:53:42,440 --> 00:53:46,240
essence, I, I, I, I think on the
student side, right, creating

935
00:53:46,960 --> 00:53:50,800
clubs and, or spaces for people
and not only my office, the

936
00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:54,200
institution that one of, and I
sure, you know, when I was on

937
00:53:54,200 --> 00:53:58,200
the job market 1819 years ago,
why I chose RIT right, is, is

938
00:53:58,200 --> 00:54:05,520
because I sought the commitment
to who I think I wanted to be in

939
00:54:05,520 --> 00:54:08,400
a space that I wanted to work.
And it's interesting because I

940
00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:11,760
interviewed at other places that
were more diverse that RIT, that

941
00:54:11,760 --> 00:54:16,000
were a different kind of
category of institution, you

942
00:54:16,000 --> 00:54:20,080
know, maybe better repute or
larger, you know, the, the core

943
00:54:20,080 --> 00:54:22,520
facilities and the labs.
And so for this one, but at

944
00:54:22,520 --> 00:54:25,280
those places, I really never
felt a place of contentment and

945
00:54:25,480 --> 00:54:28,960
commitment to RIT, right.
And, and, and that was very,

946
00:54:28,960 --> 00:54:33,040
very instrumental in, in, in my
decision not only to join RT,

947
00:54:33,040 --> 00:54:39,400
but to stay at RT in that sense.
So I, I think whether it's

948
00:54:39,400 --> 00:54:43,000
spaces, clubs and so forth, and
it's students, it's still not

949
00:54:43,000 --> 00:54:45,720
only just to create that or to
ensure that they're supporting,

950
00:54:46,240 --> 00:54:49,480
ensure that the students have
the resources or the, the, the

951
00:54:49,480 --> 00:54:52,880
things that they need in order
to survive and in order to, to

952
00:54:52,880 --> 00:54:56,160
do well excel.
I think it's, it's, it's, it's,

953
00:54:56,440 --> 00:54:58,520
it's, it's certain that we are
proud of.

954
00:54:58,520 --> 00:55:01,240
And the obviously the word did
not start with me, so to speak,

955
00:55:01,240 --> 00:55:04,080
that you know, my predecessors
and others have kind of, you

956
00:55:04,200 --> 00:55:08,200
know, our topic, this restrictor
is there and I think that, but

957
00:55:08,200 --> 00:55:10,760
it's who we are as a college and
it who was at the institute

958
00:55:10,760 --> 00:55:14,720
inside we are very welcoming
environments which we champion

959
00:55:15,320 --> 00:55:17,520
differences.
At the end of the article that I

960
00:55:17,520 --> 00:55:19,680
shared with you, I end with the
line.

961
00:55:19,960 --> 00:55:22,680
Great minds don't think alike.
Great lines, think differently

962
00:55:23,280 --> 00:55:26,800
and who you are, how you think,
right, is it's going to be

963
00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:28,960
different than your
circumstances, who you are as a

964
00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:30,920
person, what you're going to
bring to the table.

965
00:55:30,920 --> 00:55:33,720
And everyone has something to
bring to the table, right?

966
00:55:34,080 --> 00:55:37,720
And part of the part of the
education mission, I think it's,

967
00:55:37,720 --> 00:55:41,040
it's a misnomer in that, you
know, our job is to educate,

968
00:55:41,240 --> 00:55:44,400
educate, educate, right?
But sometimes our job is to

969
00:55:44,400 --> 00:55:47,040
learn, right?
And so it's a lot of what we do

970
00:55:47,040 --> 00:55:51,480
is because students educate US,
students share with us, right?

971
00:55:51,720 --> 00:55:55,320
And students inspire us in order
to help champion those changes,

972
00:55:55,440 --> 00:55:57,400
so to speak.
So I'm happy that we have the

973
00:55:57,400 --> 00:56:02,360
culture of this kind of kind of
reciprocal kind of camaraderie

974
00:56:02,360 --> 00:56:05,000
and kind of share, but one of
which is to ensure that the

975
00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:09,240
students are taken care of and
who they who they want to be and

976
00:56:09,240 --> 00:56:12,920
they could be their authentic
selves and thrive in environment

977
00:56:12,920 --> 00:56:15,920
like we would already.
But I, I.

978
00:56:15,920 --> 00:56:17,840
Like the idea of.
Authenticity.

979
00:56:17,840 --> 00:56:22,360
And I think that does tell
really well about this article

980
00:56:22,360 --> 00:56:30,120
that you mentioned and you wrote
this in 2025 and the article is

981
00:56:30,120 --> 00:56:37,480
entitled DEIA and Meritocracy
Partners in Scientific Progress.

982
00:56:37,800 --> 00:56:44,720
And the last line is.
Great minds, as you mentioned.

983
00:56:44,800 --> 00:56:48,800
Do not think alike, they think
differently.

984
00:56:49,160 --> 00:56:54,040
So tell us about the tenants.
For those who haven't read the

985
00:56:54,040 --> 00:57:00,280
article of Brown, DIA and
Meritocracy, I think you know.

986
00:57:01,120 --> 00:57:05,320
Certainly there were in 2025 and
certainly before it was this

987
00:57:05,320 --> 00:57:09,880
kind of discussion.
Or dialogue.

988
00:57:11,160 --> 00:57:13,360
Some of it was healthy, some of
which was unhealthy.

989
00:57:13,960 --> 00:57:19,640
As I would think about this
notion that you know, if you

990
00:57:19,640 --> 00:57:22,600
were from a certain background
and you got into certain spaces,

991
00:57:22,880 --> 00:57:25,480
you got there because you didn't
have the merits to get there.

992
00:57:25,600 --> 00:57:30,320
But but but there were systems
created purposely.

993
00:57:30,400 --> 00:57:35,320
To get you there.
And that bothered me because

994
00:57:36,080 --> 00:57:40,120
what the notion, what the notion
of the, the, the, the crux of

995
00:57:40,120 --> 00:57:45,400
that argument is that if you're
a certain phenotype, then you

996
00:57:45,880 --> 00:57:50,440
are innately not able to get
into those spaces on, you know,

997
00:57:50,680 --> 00:57:55,120
based on your, your hard work,
your dedication, your education,

998
00:57:55,200 --> 00:57:57,000
your persistence and so forth
and so on.

999
00:57:57,640 --> 00:58:03,800
So all we think there was this
conflation of meritocracy versus

1000
00:58:03,800 --> 00:58:07,160
kind of privilege, right?
Sometimes I see those kind of

1001
00:58:07,160 --> 00:58:10,200
interwoven and you then you
can't be coupled on and so

1002
00:58:10,200 --> 00:58:12,440
forth, right?
And so given the lawsuits and

1003
00:58:12,440 --> 00:58:14,280
the chatter that's going, I
thought it was a very, very

1004
00:58:14,280 --> 00:58:17,520
important for me to communicate
my thoughts in this particular

1005
00:58:17,520 --> 00:58:19,880
space.
And I talk about why in

1006
00:58:19,880 --> 00:58:23,240
particular science diversity
matters, right?

1007
00:58:23,240 --> 00:58:26,920
Because when you are solving
problems, right, you know, as I

1008
00:58:26,920 --> 00:58:29,240
said earlier, you don't want to
learn more and more about less

1009
00:58:29,240 --> 00:58:31,480
and less, right?
And I give an example of that,

1010
00:58:31,880 --> 00:58:35,880
you know, by just who grew up in
rural in a rural part of the

1011
00:58:35,880 --> 00:58:37,920
country who have to kind of
scrap, right.

1012
00:58:38,320 --> 00:58:40,920
They just that lived experience
might be looks a little bit

1013
00:58:40,920 --> 00:58:43,040
different than someone who comes
from a different background.

1014
00:58:43,040 --> 00:58:46,040
And if they're at the seat of
the table, right, they could set

1015
00:58:46,120 --> 00:58:48,800
champion shirt effect, right.
If you look at the initial the

1016
00:58:48,800 --> 00:58:52,440
way drugs were designed, for
example, right, based on genomic

1017
00:58:52,440 --> 00:58:57,040
information right now, those
genomes were not very, very

1018
00:58:57,080 --> 00:59:01,000
super, super thin slice of the
human population, right?

1019
00:59:01,400 --> 00:59:04,840
I could, I could argue that had
those, had there been a

1020
00:59:04,840 --> 00:59:07,320
diversity of people around the
table to discuss about, they

1021
00:59:07,320 --> 00:59:09,160
would say, hey, what about this
group?

1022
00:59:09,400 --> 00:59:12,440
What about that group?
How must trauma affect this

1023
00:59:12,440 --> 00:59:14,600
drug, right?
OK, if you're developing a

1024
00:59:14,640 --> 00:59:17,120
cholesterol drug or a high blood
pressure drug, right?

1025
00:59:17,840 --> 00:59:20,400
But hey, you know, in the black
community, they experience

1026
00:59:20,400 --> 00:59:23,080
something way different than
this other community.

1027
00:59:23,080 --> 00:59:25,800
So have we thought about that?
Have we designed experiments or

1028
00:59:25,800 --> 00:59:27,840
ensured that the drugs are so
put this all right?

1029
00:59:28,040 --> 00:59:30,920
So I think this kind of
diversity of thought, diversity

1030
00:59:31,160 --> 00:59:33,680
of this kind of diversity
enterprise, right?

1031
00:59:34,280 --> 00:59:38,000
Anything that is comes from a
place of diversity, the product

1032
00:59:38,040 --> 00:59:41,440
is always better.
The product is just always

1033
00:59:41,440 --> 00:59:44,240
better.
And so in science, why would we

1034
00:59:44,240 --> 00:59:47,080
not want that in such?
Why would we wanted the best

1035
00:59:47,080 --> 00:59:49,240
minds in order to get to the
top?

1036
00:59:49,600 --> 00:59:53,080
Now, in terms of DEIA, right?
If you look at this notion that

1037
00:59:53,080 --> 00:59:54,720
this notion that like you just
get there.

1038
00:59:54,720 --> 00:59:56,600
If you're the best, you should
get there, right?

1039
00:59:56,800 --> 00:59:59,080
Well, maybe you're the best, but
maybe you didn't have the

1040
00:59:59,080 --> 01:00:03,640
opportunity, right, right.
Maybe because your school system

1041
01:00:04,280 --> 01:00:06,720
that that you grew up in or you
you went to.

1042
01:00:07,160 --> 01:00:11,040
Is in a part of town that
doesn't get the tax the taxes in

1043
01:00:11,040 --> 01:00:13,840
order to reinvest back into the
school system to give you access

1044
01:00:13,840 --> 01:00:16,680
to allow right now.
You may have to drive, you may

1045
01:00:16,680 --> 01:00:19,240
have to passion, you may have to
go with all of you may have the

1046
01:00:19,640 --> 01:00:22,520
the the the kind of the work
ethic in order to get there.

1047
01:00:22,760 --> 01:00:26,080
But why should you be penalized
for the lack of opportunity when

1048
01:00:26,080 --> 01:00:29,840
it was not your fault and so?
For me.

1049
01:00:30,000 --> 01:00:32,800
This is why this space is very,
very important to me in

1050
01:00:32,800 --> 01:00:35,840
providing exposure.
It's basically you're high

1051
01:00:35,840 --> 01:00:37,520
school students, right?
And you don't have the

1052
01:00:37,520 --> 01:00:40,840
opportunity to be in the lab.
Come to my lab, come on campus,

1053
01:00:40,880 --> 01:00:44,120
see what it's like to be like
that expose and it's not about

1054
01:00:44,120 --> 01:00:47,760
to recruiting you is that I want
to expose you into this kind of

1055
01:00:47,760 --> 01:00:51,080
environment that is going to
help shape you and, and, and,

1056
01:00:51,080 --> 01:00:56,080
and help, you know, you make up
your mind about what you want to

1057
01:00:56,080 --> 01:00:58,960
do in the future.
So access is very, very

1058
01:00:58,960 --> 01:01:01,280
important, such as obviously
inclusion, right?

1059
01:01:01,280 --> 01:01:04,640
We need to ensure that people
feel comfortable sharing their

1060
01:01:04,640 --> 01:01:07,800
thoughts, sharing their values,
sharing their Morais at their

1061
01:01:07,800 --> 01:01:09,720
norms, at their ideas and so
forth.

1062
01:01:10,480 --> 01:01:14,640
So I think this, this, this
enterprise system, this holistic

1063
01:01:14,960 --> 01:01:17,760
system of that, what we have,
right is that if you look at

1064
01:01:17,760 --> 01:01:21,520
history and look at every
product, right, If that product

1065
01:01:21,520 --> 01:01:25,400
is designed or implemented or
created from a place of

1066
01:01:25,400 --> 01:01:28,920
diversity at a place of
different, if it's engineered

1067
01:01:29,240 --> 01:01:33,760
that way, the product is always
better than if it's not, if it's

1068
01:01:33,760 --> 01:01:37,200
not, if it that's not part of
the process itself, right?

1069
01:01:37,200 --> 01:01:41,720
And so it should not be any
different in science, so.

1070
01:01:41,720 --> 01:01:44,680
What that?
When you talk about.

1071
01:01:44,680 --> 01:01:46,720
This it.
Brings to mind to me this

1072
01:01:46,720 --> 01:01:53,600
concept of universal design.
So is the science is designed to

1073
01:01:53,600 --> 01:01:59,240
be a benefit or to be used in
multiple communities with

1074
01:01:59,240 --> 01:02:04,520
sensitivity to again, let's go
back to biological,

1075
01:02:05,520 --> 01:02:09,120
environmental and perhaps I
think we mentioned one other

1076
01:02:09,120 --> 01:02:15,040
concept around those those
groups so so that.

1077
01:02:15,040 --> 01:02:18,400
You're not missing something.
And you're like likely to get

1078
01:02:18,400 --> 01:02:22,280
the most optimal results
intended from that particular

1079
01:02:22,280 --> 01:02:25,600
treatment.
So right and actually because.

1080
01:02:26,200 --> 01:02:27,960
Again, that's part of the lived
experience, right?

1081
01:02:27,960 --> 01:02:30,920
As a scientist who grew up in a
certain spaces, right?

1082
01:02:30,920 --> 01:02:33,560
Like, so you're one of the
fascinating things that, for

1083
01:02:33,560 --> 01:02:36,680
example, study abroad, right?
I think it's just a fantastic

1084
01:02:36,680 --> 01:02:40,120
way to educate students, right?
Because you get, you know, get

1085
01:02:40,120 --> 01:02:43,560
away from Rochester, get away
from RIT, get away from whatever

1086
01:02:43,560 --> 01:02:45,760
university, right?
Go go exploration different

1087
01:02:45,760 --> 01:02:47,720
culture.
They'll see how people live.

1088
01:02:47,720 --> 01:02:50,280
They'll see how people eat or
see what kind of music that

1089
01:02:50,280 --> 01:02:53,640
people listen to.
Like expose yourself, the things

1090
01:02:53,640 --> 01:02:57,240
that are going to shape who you
are as a person and then bring

1091
01:02:57,560 --> 01:02:59,360
bring that back.
I see there's no different in

1092
01:02:59,360 --> 01:03:02,320
science where you have a
particular lived experience.

1093
01:03:02,320 --> 01:03:05,200
You think a straight away, you
design a certain way, you argue

1094
01:03:05,280 --> 01:03:07,160
a straight way, you write a
straight away, right?

1095
01:03:07,360 --> 01:03:10,400
How ultimately you could
integrate that into a product

1096
01:03:10,400 --> 01:03:11,720
that's going to get better,
right?

1097
01:03:11,720 --> 01:03:14,280
So it's just fascinating when a
student writes something, right

1098
01:03:14,280 --> 01:03:17,080
And like, wow, this student
shouldn't be a scientist, they

1099
01:03:17,080 --> 01:03:19,720
should go be a lawyer.
Maybe they could argue, right,

1100
01:03:20,200 --> 01:03:21,560
right.
And it's just because they grew

1101
01:03:21,560 --> 01:03:24,360
up in a system that kind of
maybe shapes how they

1102
01:03:24,360 --> 01:03:27,600
communicate in terms of, you
know, their style of writing.

1103
01:03:27,600 --> 01:03:29,160
And there is nothing wrong with
it, right?

1104
01:03:29,520 --> 01:03:32,760
Then you have students that are
trained or scientists that are

1105
01:03:32,760 --> 01:03:36,000
trained in a certain setting and
they think in reverse, right?

1106
01:03:36,000 --> 01:03:38,520
So ready to think why?
Well, rather than me figuring

1107
01:03:38,520 --> 01:03:41,760
out what the enzyme does, what
about if I make a mutants and

1108
01:03:41,760 --> 01:03:44,240
see what the phenotype is of the
Organism and then work

1109
01:03:44,240 --> 01:03:46,760
backwards, right?
You get to the same answer, but

1110
01:03:46,760 --> 01:03:49,280
you just ask the question in a
different way, right?

1111
01:03:49,280 --> 01:03:52,040
Or someone who's trained with an
engineering background was at

1112
01:03:52,080 --> 01:03:54,080
home.
I remember taking the class over

1113
01:03:54,080 --> 01:03:57,840
here and over here and this
snake or I have a colleague over

1114
01:03:57,840 --> 01:03:59,960
here and so forth.
And so so these this whole is

1115
01:03:59,960 --> 01:04:03,760
this kind of network analysis
that you could do and you only

1116
01:04:03,760 --> 01:04:05,440
need that.
You cannot have a network with

1117
01:04:05,440 --> 01:04:08,200
adverse their first if you're
connected to their self or

1118
01:04:08,200 --> 01:04:10,560
connected to the people that
think like you all the time,

1119
01:04:10,560 --> 01:04:12,080
right?
You just really not want to move

1120
01:04:12,080 --> 01:04:14,800
the needle or if you do, it's
going to be incremental at best,

1121
01:04:15,320 --> 01:04:17,160
so to speak.
So This is why I think

1122
01:04:17,560 --> 01:04:23,440
diversity, inclusion, you know,
access, equity, all of that

1123
01:04:23,440 --> 01:04:26,840
matters in, in terms of in the
scientific enterprise, so to

1124
01:04:26,840 --> 01:04:30,240
speak, and we're speaking with.
Doctor Andre Hudson.

1125
01:04:30,240 --> 01:04:34,720
Who is Dean for the College of
Science at Rochester Institute

1126
01:04:35,040 --> 01:04:38,880
of Technology?
So Andre, what would you say to

1127
01:04:39,560 --> 01:04:42,040
someone?
And I usually say young person,

1128
01:04:42,040 --> 01:04:45,360
but you know, that's I don't
want to be ageist in this

1129
01:04:45,400 --> 01:04:47,800
regard.
Someone who might be interested

1130
01:04:47,800 --> 01:04:52,760
in the field of science, but
perhaps have not yet found their

1131
01:04:52,760 --> 01:05:00,000
tribe and ultimately, if they
were to choose to pursue that

1132
01:05:00,000 --> 01:05:05,680
study at RIT, you know what,
what words of inspiration can

1133
01:05:05,680 --> 01:05:08,000
you give to those individuals?
Very good.

1134
01:05:08,040 --> 01:05:10,040
So I I think.
First of all, if you are a

1135
01:05:10,040 --> 01:05:13,200
scholar, a prospective scholar
who would love to study science

1136
01:05:13,200 --> 01:05:18,760
at this, please have a look at
RIT in the College of Science

1137
01:05:18,760 --> 01:05:22,680
and in any over the our programs
that we offer at at RIT.

1138
01:05:22,680 --> 01:05:26,360
I think it's a fantastic
institution that's on the rise

1139
01:05:26,360 --> 01:05:29,480
and surely we're doing some
fantastic things in in in all

1140
01:05:29,480 --> 01:05:32,440
respects.
I should know that one of the

1141
01:05:32,440 --> 01:05:36,400
concepts that I often share with
students is that exponential

1142
01:05:36,400 --> 01:05:40,440
learning is at the heart of
everything that everyone does is

1143
01:05:40,440 --> 01:05:45,200
that do not make up your mind
until you put yourself in that

1144
01:05:45,200 --> 01:05:49,520
space or the opportunity
experience it and then make a

1145
01:05:49,520 --> 01:05:53,520
decision.
I think we have certain spaces

1146
01:05:53,520 --> 01:05:57,200
in science that are a
traditional traditionally

1147
01:05:57,200 --> 01:06:01,040
exclusionary in the sense that,
you know, women can't be

1148
01:06:01,040 --> 01:06:04,080
physicists.
You know, girls are not good at

1149
01:06:04,360 --> 01:06:08,040
math, right?
In, in, in, in certain things

1150
01:06:08,040 --> 01:06:10,880
or, you know, if you get into
the space, you're not going to

1151
01:06:10,880 --> 01:06:13,560
thrive because you're going to
be one of a few and so forth and

1152
01:06:13,560 --> 01:06:17,920
so on.
And I think, yeah, I just love

1153
01:06:17,920 --> 01:06:21,240
the sculpt from Nezzel Mandela,
which says I never lose.

1154
01:06:21,320 --> 01:06:25,480
I always win or learn.
And I think that's the mindsets

1155
01:06:25,560 --> 01:06:30,680
of every single scholar that
wants to experience or want to

1156
01:06:30,680 --> 01:06:33,200
get into a space is the mindset
that you have.

1157
01:06:33,560 --> 01:06:36,880
I'm going to try it.
I'm going to put myself, I'm

1158
01:06:36,880 --> 01:06:38,920
going to go seek the
opportunity, right?

1159
01:06:39,320 --> 01:06:43,480
And even if I do not like it,
right, it's still beneficial for

1160
01:06:43,480 --> 01:06:46,520
me because at least I
experienced it before I made a

1161
01:06:46,520 --> 01:06:49,280
decision, right?
And I think that's the heart of

1162
01:06:49,320 --> 01:06:53,440
experiential learning is that we
need to provide access and

1163
01:06:53,440 --> 01:06:58,640
spaces for anyone for anyone
for.

1164
01:06:58,720 --> 01:07:01,680
Anyone who wants to do.
Something or wants to try it.

1165
01:07:01,960 --> 01:07:05,280
There needs to be a space, for
example, to at least try it.

1166
01:07:05,840 --> 01:07:08,760
Some of them will not continue
and that's totally fine.

1167
01:07:08,760 --> 01:07:10,280
They will do something else,
right?

1168
01:07:10,520 --> 01:07:15,120
But some of them will inspired
and like wow and so forth is and

1169
01:07:15,120 --> 01:07:16,720
it can continue in the chart,
right?

1170
01:07:16,760 --> 01:07:19,440
And so I think that's very, very
important.

1171
01:07:19,440 --> 01:07:23,400
And I think at RIT, we provide
the space and the opportunity,

1172
01:07:23,880 --> 01:07:29,440
right, for students to be their
authentic selves, to experience

1173
01:07:29,440 --> 01:07:30,600
things.
You're right, you know, for

1174
01:07:30,600 --> 01:07:33,360
example, we have this wonderful
Co-op program at RIT.

1175
01:07:34,040 --> 01:07:36,880
We're part of the mission, are
part of the academic or part of

1176
01:07:36,880 --> 01:07:40,000
their curriculum, so to speak.
And for them to go get a Co-op

1177
01:07:40,600 --> 01:07:44,880
cooperative education, go embed
themselves into a company, embed

1178
01:07:44,880 --> 01:07:48,360
themselves into certain spaces
and get the experience, so to

1179
01:07:48,360 --> 01:07:50,720
speak, right?
And as I said, you will never

1180
01:07:50,720 --> 01:07:52,280
lose.
You will always win or learn.

1181
01:07:55,120 --> 01:07:56,960
The I I definitely appreciate
that.

1182
01:07:58,520 --> 01:08:05,040
Yeah, so Co-op in a sense allows
you to earn money through

1183
01:08:05,400 --> 01:08:09,960
applied experience while also
pursuing one's academic

1184
01:08:10,200 --> 01:08:13,240
credentials.
Would that take them longer?

1185
01:08:13,240 --> 01:08:13,960
To.
Graduate.

1186
01:08:14,680 --> 01:08:16,120
Well, it depends.
And so in.

1187
01:08:16,840 --> 01:08:20,000
In certain programs, we have
five year programs, it's a

1188
01:08:20,120 --> 01:08:23,479
certain especially in our
engineering and some of our

1189
01:08:23,479 --> 01:08:25,640
computing programs, those are
five year programs because they

1190
01:08:25,640 --> 01:08:30,000
have two blocks of coops in in
traditional programs like some

1191
01:08:30,000 --> 01:08:32,040
traditional programs like
biology, chemistry, which are

1192
01:08:32,040 --> 01:08:34,880
four years, right, students do
their coops or experiences over

1193
01:08:34,880 --> 01:08:37,240
the summer.
So for this one, so it not not

1194
01:08:37,520 --> 01:08:39,920
doesn't necessarily mean that
you graduate later.

1195
01:08:40,880 --> 01:08:43,399
Yeah, certainly has to be
cleansed and be orchestrated.

1196
01:08:43,399 --> 01:08:46,680
We have students coming in now
with a lot of AP credits and

1197
01:08:46,800 --> 01:08:49,520
college bearing credits.
And so it's almost like your

1198
01:08:49,520 --> 01:08:51,880
semester ahead.
So they could kind of later on

1199
01:08:52,200 --> 01:08:55,279
take a semester to go do Co-op
so they don't lag in terms of

1200
01:08:55,279 --> 01:08:58,080
graduation and so forth.
So I think the intentionality

1201
01:08:58,279 --> 01:09:00,600
behind it.
But you know, RBA, right, A lot

1202
01:09:00,600 --> 01:09:03,279
of their experience in the
Biological Sciences or the life

1203
01:09:03,279 --> 01:09:05,920
sciences or just sciences in
general, right?

1204
01:09:06,080 --> 01:09:08,880
Or arts, you could do that
during the academic year, right?

1205
01:09:08,880 --> 01:09:12,880
So for example, I, I host a
bunch of undergraduate students,

1206
01:09:13,960 --> 01:09:16,240
certain graduate students and
others in my lab throughout the

1207
01:09:16,240 --> 01:09:18,000
academic year.
And that's part of their

1208
01:09:18,000 --> 01:09:21,520
education and exponential
learning as well.

1209
01:09:22,279 --> 01:09:23,960
Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned
that because.

1210
01:09:25,279 --> 01:09:30,720
We're hearing a lot about
alternative models for crediting

1211
01:09:31,800 --> 01:09:38,680
students who can bring lived
experiences that speak to their

1212
01:09:38,680 --> 01:09:45,120
aptitude and or mastery of
particular concepts and and

1213
01:09:45,120 --> 01:09:49,840
skills within their programs.
So with that, have you guys

1214
01:09:50,120 --> 01:09:55,360
started playing with sort of
competency based learning for

1215
01:09:55,560 --> 01:09:58,040
credits particularly through
like the co-ops and other

1216
01:09:58,040 --> 01:09:59,640
models?
Yeah.

1217
01:09:59,640 --> 01:10:01,880
So I think you.
Know for example, when you when

1218
01:10:01,880 --> 01:10:04,760
a student goes and do a Co
operate, it is no go to the

1219
01:10:04,760 --> 01:10:06,560
experiences in automatic
accounts, right.

1220
01:10:06,560 --> 01:10:10,840
We have a system where the
company chimes in and evaluates

1221
01:10:10,840 --> 01:10:14,760
students, evaluates the
respondents and certainly the

1222
01:10:14,760 --> 01:10:18,360
office have to prove it before
it's kind of actually annotated

1223
01:10:18,360 --> 01:10:20,120
on their transcript, so to
speak.

1224
01:10:20,840 --> 01:10:23,200
So there's a betting process to
ensure that there's some breath

1225
01:10:23,200 --> 01:10:27,960
and depths to the experience and
it actually counts so forth,

1226
01:10:27,960 --> 01:10:32,040
right, If you do undergraduate
research and it has to be count

1227
01:10:32,040 --> 01:10:33,640
right now.
Obviously the event had to

1228
01:10:33,640 --> 01:10:37,120
ensure that not only breath and
death, but hopefully the student

1229
01:10:37,200 --> 01:10:40,760
disseminated or communicated in
soft form in order for it to

1230
01:10:40,760 --> 01:10:42,960
Congress.
So there are some expectations

1231
01:10:42,960 --> 01:10:44,720
that just I'm just going to do
it right there.

1232
01:10:44,720 --> 01:10:50,480
So deliverables from the student
and that is actually necessary

1233
01:10:50,520 --> 01:10:53,640
in order for them to get the
credits or hesitate you know

1234
01:10:53,640 --> 01:10:56,280
their transcripts in order for
them to fulfill that major

1235
01:10:56,440 --> 01:10:58,880
requirement.
So those are.

1236
01:10:58,880 --> 01:11:04,520
Wonderful opportunities.
So Andre, what is next for you

1237
01:11:04,920 --> 01:11:09,920
in terms of your professional
work or what are some upcoming

1238
01:11:09,920 --> 01:11:13,920
events at RIT that might be of
interest to the add up

1239
01:11:13,920 --> 01:11:16,760
Accelerated Excellence community
and how might the community

1240
01:11:16,760 --> 01:11:18,080
engage?
Sure.

1241
01:11:18,360 --> 01:11:22,040
Yeah, so, so.
For me, I'm, I'm currently, I'm

1242
01:11:22,040 --> 01:11:23,880
serving as the Dean of the
college science.

1243
01:11:23,880 --> 01:11:27,240
I love what I do every day.
I kind of see every day as a

1244
01:11:27,240 --> 01:11:28,840
chess puzzle, so to speak,
right?

1245
01:11:28,920 --> 01:11:31,320
Which is kind of figuring out
how to navigate all the

1246
01:11:31,320 --> 01:11:35,440
headwinds and all of the good
things and getting ready to

1247
01:11:35,440 --> 01:11:38,320
onboard new scholars and
supporting our current scholars

1248
01:11:38,320 --> 01:11:40,480
and obviously our faculty staff,
etcetera.

1249
01:11:41,240 --> 01:11:43,040
I just, I love what I do every
day.

1250
01:11:43,040 --> 01:11:45,560
And then so I, I can see myself
continuing to do that in the

1251
01:11:45,560 --> 01:11:47,720
future.
I think for our community, the

1252
01:11:48,360 --> 01:11:50,200
community.
First of all, thank you so much

1253
01:11:50,200 --> 01:11:55,880
for and, and our mutual
colleague Trevor for putting us

1254
01:11:55,880 --> 01:11:58,600
in contacts.
This was a wonderful connection

1255
01:11:59,160 --> 01:12:02,200
is that, you know, just check us
out, you know, whether it's

1256
01:12:02,200 --> 01:12:05,640
through websites, through our
social media platforms for

1257
01:12:05,640 --> 01:12:09,120
prospective students out there,
we host a cadre of open houses,

1258
01:12:09,160 --> 01:12:11,560
virtual open houses, in person
open houses.

1259
01:12:12,760 --> 01:12:16,680
We're going to do some things
over the summer to expose what

1260
01:12:16,680 --> 01:12:20,480
we do here at RIT.
So I would love for individuals

1261
01:12:20,560 --> 01:12:22,760
who are interested in RIT, not
necessarily in science.

1262
01:12:22,760 --> 01:12:25,120
If you're just interested in
RIT, that's fantastic.

1263
01:12:26,040 --> 01:12:29,480
So feel free to contact me.
I'm sure that you will share my

1264
01:12:29,480 --> 01:12:33,040
contact exhalation and then I
will love to put you in touch

1265
01:12:33,120 --> 01:12:37,520
with whatever office or college
or academic program that are

1266
01:12:37,520 --> 01:12:39,760
aligned with your interest.
Irrespective of it, this is

1267
01:12:39,760 --> 01:12:42,600
science or not, right?
I think I'd love to be an

1268
01:12:42,600 --> 01:12:45,320
ambassador for the university,
for a wonderful university that

1269
01:12:45,320 --> 01:12:48,920
is doing some great things.
And it's on a as an alpha.

1270
01:12:48,920 --> 01:12:51,480
I have to say this is on a
onward and upward trajectory.

1271
01:12:53,680 --> 01:12:56,440
I'm smiling and I I love.
That so I appreciate it.

1272
01:12:56,840 --> 01:13:01,120
So there you go folks.
So even if you're not interested

1273
01:13:01,120 --> 01:13:05,840
in science, Dean Hudson has the
Invitational that if you

1274
01:13:05,840 --> 01:13:09,560
connect, he will network you
through to the appropriate

1275
01:13:09,560 --> 01:13:13,960
bodies there at Rochester
Institute of Technology.

1276
01:13:14,440 --> 01:13:17,720
So Doctor Hudson, I want to
thank you for this opportunity.

1277
01:13:17,880 --> 01:13:20,560
And I probably should say Dean
Hudson, I want to thank our

1278
01:13:21,040 --> 01:13:24,840
opportunity to learn with and
from you here at Add Up

1279
01:13:24,840 --> 01:13:28,000
Accelerated Excellence where we
seek to advance educational

1280
01:13:28,000 --> 01:13:30,200
excellence and equity.
Yeah, sure.

1281
01:13:30,200 --> 01:13:31,640
And thank you for opportunity.
It's been.

1282
01:13:31,640 --> 01:13:33,880
A fantastic experience and I
wish you all the best and

1283
01:13:34,000 --> 01:13:36,040
hopefully we could connect
sometime soon in person.

1284
01:13:36,480 --> 01:13:38,320
Oh yeah, this has been this has
been wonderful.

1285
01:13:40,800 --> 01:13:42,440
Thank you for engaging with add
up.

1286
01:13:42,440 --> 01:13:46,400
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of the Add Up Experience network

1287
01:13:46,400 --> 01:13:50,040
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1288
01:13:50,040 --> 01:13:53,360
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1289
01:13:53,360 --> 01:13:57,240
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01:13:57,240 --> 01:14:01,560
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01:14:01,560 --> 01:14:05,360
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01:14:05,360 --> 01:14:08,760
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01:14:21,520 --> 01:14:24,240
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01:14:24,240 --> 01:14:27,960
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