Dr. Larry J. Walker —Policy Preparation and Development for Educational Justice

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So I had an experience, all
right, So not a good one.

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When I was teaching, I taught in
Baltimore City and and this is

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what because I think this is
this really moment is the reason

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why I left preteen through 12.
And it is also the moment that

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it solidified what I believe we
need to do in terms of

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supporting black males.
I saw a principal call the

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police on a young black male.
I'm thinking, I only think it

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wasn't one of us.
I think he was like elementary

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school.
And I could have wrapped my mind

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around and it was for like
something, it wasn't something

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that like overtly violent.
And at the time, I could wrap my

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mind around why an adult would
call the police on a student.

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And like I said, it just
reinforced everything that I

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experienced and everything that
I read, everything I've written

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about up to that point in terms
of the challenges black males

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encounter.
So is that particular meant that

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then was a, it was a stressor,
right?

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That it let me to say, OK, I'm
Lee, I can't do this anymore.

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And then B, you know, what else
do I do?

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And then thirdly, I was like,
OK, so my as my as I develop a

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research agenda is going to have
to be focused on some of these

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issues.
This is Nicholas Hartlett,

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Robert Charles Billings Endowed
Chair in Education at Berea

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notes.
Welcome, welcome.

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Welcome to the Add Up
Accelerated Excellence podcast

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for the advancement of
educational excellence and

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equity.
And I am your host, Jacob

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Easley, the second PHDPMP.
And today's guest is an expert

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in the field of policy, and
we're going to focus on

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educational policy and
educational justice with Doctor

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Larry J Walker, who is associate
professor and doctoral program

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coordinator at the University of
Central Florida.

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Mary, welcome to the show.
And will you please introduce

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yourself to the Add Up
Accelerated Excellence community

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by giving names to your voices?
Only you can.

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And if you can share that 35,000
aerial view of what's happening

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in your sphere right now.
What's top of mind for you?

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Yeah.
First of all, it's it's a

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pleasure to join you today.
I look forward to, you know, in

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depth and conversation during
some interesting times, not only

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in the state of Florida, but
nationally and internationally,

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obviously.
So as you you kind of

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highlighted my, you know, kind
of where I am academically at

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UCF, I've also taught at Howard
University health faculty

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appointments there, Lowell,
University of Maryland.

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But in addition to that, we're
going to kind of deconstruct

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some of my policy background
working on Capitol Hill and also

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have some experience work to
work in a pre-K through 12

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settings.
People always surprised to

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realize I have a policy
background and also have

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experiences as a as a teacher.
But it's it's true.

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And I think it really grounds a
lot of ground a lot of my policy

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work as I continue to do a lot
of that work as a researcher,

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presenter, as a writer.
But one of the things I want to

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highlight is I think that's
really important about

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background.
I know we chatted about this a

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few weeks ago, is that I'm from
the city of Philadelphia, which

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is a long history of, I guess,
you know, black activism.

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And I think I would certainly
say that in terms of who I am

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and my orientation is is
centered in a lot of that.

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And I'm proud of that
background.

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And I carry that with me here,
you know, in the state of

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Florida.
And overall, just I'm still one

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who cares deeply about
education.

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And like I said, look forward to
having a deep and important

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conversation.
So, Larry, thank you for that.

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Philadelphia, Philadelphia,
Philadelphia.

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I said three times, because
Philadelphia seems to keep

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resurfacing on this show.
Jamal Watson is from

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Philadelphia.
He was on the show.

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Bryce Thompson, who's a young
brother now in his first year of

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teaching, is from Philadelphia.
And we had Shani Fellmecki, who

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is director for the Center for
Black Educated Development.

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Of course, that organization is
in is in Philadelphia.

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So as shady for say,
Philadelphia City of

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brother-in-law and sisterly
affection.

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Let's start there.
So you talked about

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Philadelphia's unique Black
justice legacy.

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How did growing up in that
environment shape your early

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understanding of what justice or
opportunity should look like

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before you even entered this
work of of formal policy work?

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And, and thank you for the
question.

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So one of the things about
interesting is that I, I should

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add a, add a note to this.
So I was born in Camden, NJ,

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which is right across the Grand
Franklin Bridge.

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My parents divorced, my mother
remarried and we moved to

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Philadelphia when I was in
middle school.

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So it when I talk about, you
know, Philadelphia and you know,

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growing up, the time I did it is
not only obviously the culture

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and history, black history
there, but it's also a trans a

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pivot point for me in my life as
a young person.

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I can say my parents divorced
and my mother remarried, but

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sort of it really means a lot to
me.

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My aunt still lives there.
My sister and mother moved out

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of that city.
Actually, my sister lives in

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Texas right now.
But you know, I love going back

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to the city to see, you know, my
family, aunt or family and

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friends, colleagues, college.
I'm with the chain university

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undergraduate, so I do you get a
chance to go back to

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Philadelphia a couple times of
the year.

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But it's such a such a city as
so much rooted in black history

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and culture.
As I said, it's one of those

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things when you're in Philly and
around Black Philadelphians is

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that you just kind of immerse
yourself in being around good

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people.
I know that people from the

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Northeast and Philly and
sometimes New York are accused

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of being a big blunt, but what I
always say about people in

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Philadelphia is they're going to
be honest with you, right?

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They're not, they're not,
they're not going to tell you

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that something is not true.
And in addition to that, you

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know, obviously talking about
history of, you know, the AME

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church, you know, I am AME found
that, you know, found the AME

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church, the Boulet among all the
organizations.

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The other thing about
Philadelphia heads, it's had

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several black mayors starting
with Wilson Good and you know,

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Mayor Parker, now Mayor St. in
the past, so Nutter, who's also

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another black mayor.
So the city has a long history

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of black mayors.
And I think once again, that

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that speaks to the cultural
identity of the city.

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Obviously you have a strong
Puerto Rican population, white,

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etcetera, but it is that that
foundation that still exists

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today in terms of the black
community.

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I grew up in West Oak Lane in
Philadelphia, So it is in that,

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like I said, that tradition that
I carry me to this, to UCF and

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to the state of Florida.
So thank you for that and you

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mentioned the word that I don't
hear that often.

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You mentioned the boule.
So it just take a few minutes

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and enlighten the community on
what the boule is.

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So I'm not a member of the
Boulet, but the reason I mention

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it is because because I think
it's important we talk about

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black excellence, right?
So a Boulet is actually Boulet

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is the black oldest black Greek
letter organization in the

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United States.
So I'm a member of Alpha Phi

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Alpha.
So we are clearly the oldest

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intercollegiate black
fraternity, but the Boulet is

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the oldest Greek fraternity in
the United States.

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I said founding in Philadelphia
a Black professionals who

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realized that they needed a
place in the space and

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organization to continue to do
some of the work they can do and

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have a meeting of the minds.
And obviously that organization

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years later is continues to
thrive.

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And like I said, it's important
when I talk about Black

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excellence to mention all the
aspects of what it means for

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City of Philadelphia in terms of
what it what is it produced and

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what is done to contribute to
the Black diaspora, not only the

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United States, but throughout
the world.

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So you mentioned your early work
in in K12, so let's just jump

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back a bit.
And before we get to policy, how

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did you come to the field of
education and how I guess

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instructive was your K12
experience parlaying you into

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your profession beyond what we
would call, I guess, public,

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public or basic education?
You know, it's interesting I

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spent my time was split between
public school and parochial

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school, you know, Philadelphia
it came to New Jersey, but I

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spent most like high school was
when I was all parochial school

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where I attended Colonel Doctor
high school in Philadelphia,

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which is unfortunately not
closed like a lot of religious.

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You know, our schools in
Philadelphia are archdiocese now

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closed.
But my pre KP 12 experience, you

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know, it's interesting.
I was very I was an average

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student.
In fact, my family reminds me

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that often they don't have to
because I remember it.

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But you know, it's like families
always give you a hard time

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about things, but it's just
being a professor now.

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But I was AI was a mediocre
student.

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But I think a lot of that in
terms of my pre KP 12 experience

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was, was was rooted in the fact
that I don't think that teachers

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taught to the things that I was
interested in.

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Let me give an example.
When I was in when I got to high

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school, like I was and we had
their family track students,

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right?
So I was an above average track

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and like history and religion
and and all the other subjects

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average track the two subjects
that I love the most, religion

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and history are intertwine,
right?

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So the classes that dealt with
how do we get here essentially

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are the classes that I excelled
in.

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The other courses, they just
didn't kind of they didn't speak

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to me.
And as I reflected, I was gotten

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older, I realized that was just
that that is that is those and

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top subjects I was always
interested in and continue to

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center my work in history.
The other thing is about, you

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know, as it relates to my pre-K
through topics, I didn't have

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any black male teachers
throughout my throughout that

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experience.
And I know we talked about that

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a lot in terms of, we know
research wise, Black students

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who have at least one black
teacher are far more likely to

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be successful.
We also know that black teachers

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also increase the outcomes of
white students and other

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students, right?
So it's really important to

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highlight that.
But not having a black teacher

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impacted me.
And you know, as I, you know,

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the other thing I want to just
outline is, you know, I

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graduated from high school, got
into a couple colleges.

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My parents are like, you're a
mediocre student.

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We're not going to pay off for
that's tuition.

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So I actually spent like 2 years
working.

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I attended the Community College
of Philadelphia part time for

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like 2 years.
And then I was like, you know, I

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read the autobiography of
Malcolm X.

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And I think I want to I'm
mentioning that because that's a

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pivotal moment of my life that
as told the outside Alex Haley,

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that version after I read that
book and I read about his

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transformation from Malcolm
Little to Malcolm X, I realized

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like, wow, wait a minute, They
really tapped into something

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within me and says, listen, if
you can change his life like in

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like I was doing fine.
But I think that I realized that

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I needed to go back to a four
year.

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I attend a four year institution
full time and that experience of

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not having any black male
teacher wait on me.

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So I attended chain university
and major and graduate a degree

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in elementary education.
That's how you got to elementary

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00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:40,840
education, but I'm kind of
sensing that because you love

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history and religion.
I think and we'll and let's

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00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:47,480
explore this.
I think you were deeply

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concerned about the human and
social conditions and so that

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that might track now to what
you're doing.

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00:13:55,480 --> 00:14:00,080
Tell us about those first few
years in in K12 teaching after

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00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:05,840
you left Cheney, which is an
HBCU, and how did that influence

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00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:10,960
the way you began to think about
education and I would say in

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some ways educational justice.
Yeah, it's a good point.

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00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:18,200
So actually after I left Cheney,
I went to Howard and got a

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master's degree in education.
It was after Howard that I

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00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:25,200
started started teaching in
Maryland.

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I've taught in Maryland,
Virginia.

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So and also, you know, short
period of time in Florida.

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So in terms of you know, Cheney
helped guy and shaped me into,

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you know, we historically as a
teacher's college, not anymore,

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but that experience is important
to me.

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And even after I was at the time
I was graduating leaving Cheney,

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I was going to go and you know,
teach maybe the Philadelphia

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area and I came to DC actually
had a former girlfriend who was

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doing some was an American.
That was my first experience

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00:14:57,120 --> 00:14:58,520
coming to DCI.
Think that's important to know.

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The first time I came to DC was
goes to see to see a young lady.

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So I I should I should unpack
that right?

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00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:07,680
Right.
So I was like, wow, DC is really

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00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:09,680
nice.
And then, you know, as I was

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finishing up, I say, you know, I
think I want to go to Howard.

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00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:15,960
And the interesting thing about
Howard University is I actually,

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I didn't have a car at the time
and I was doing my finishing up

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00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:22,440
my student teaching and I
actually jumped on a bus to to

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00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:26,960
to the DC and met with the
associate Dean who I had been,

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00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:28,920
you know, calling, talking to on
the phone.

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00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:31,200
Indeed.
And as I'm with the Howard end

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00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:33,920
up getting a scholarship,
teaching citizenship and some

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00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:36,200
other scholarship aid.
But it was after I graduated

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00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:39,560
Howard that I started working in
pre K212 systems.

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00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:42,840
I should know before that I will
work in various summer programs

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00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:45,600
where I was teaching young
students in Philadelphia outside

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the city.
So I had plenty of experience

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00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:50,440
working with young people prior
to even, you know, during my

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00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:52,880
time at Cheney and, you know,
after graduating Howard, even

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00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:54,360
when I was Howard, I was doing
some tutoring.

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00:15:56,560 --> 00:15:59,080
All right, so Eddie, I wanted to
take you back to social

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00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:03,120
educational justice through P12
your experiences.

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00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:06,920
How does that begin to shape
your thinking about educational

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00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:10,640
justice?
So I had an experience, all

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00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:15,360
right, So not a good one.
When I was teaching, I taught in

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00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:18,040
Baltimore City and when I was
teaching in Baltimore.

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00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:22,320
And it's just because I think
this is this really moment is

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00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:23,800
the reason why I left pre-K
through 12.

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00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:28,200
And it is also the moment that
it solidified what I believe we

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00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:30,160
need to do in terms of
supporting black males.

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00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:35,320
I saw a principal call the
police when a young black male.

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00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:37,720
I'm thinking only thing is it
wasn't one of us.

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00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:39,120
I think he was like elementary
school.

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00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:42,640
And I could have wrapped my mind
around and it was for like

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00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:45,680
something, it wasn't something
that like overtly violent.

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00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:50,400
And at the time, I could have
wrap my mind around why an adult

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00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:53,480
would call the police on a
student.

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00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:57,360
And like I said, it just
reinforced everything that I

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00:16:57,360 --> 00:16:59,560
experienced and everything that
I read, everything that I've

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00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:01,800
written about up to that point
in terms of the challenges black

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00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:04,760
males encounter.
So as raceless kind of these

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00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:07,640
these social social justice
issues as it relates to pre PP

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00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:10,960
12, That particular experience
is all the other things and

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00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:13,400
doing all the reading and
writing and Graduate School then

303
00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:16,079
teaching, you know,
predominantly black students or

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00:17:16,079 --> 00:17:19,000
minoritized students.
That particular meant that then

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00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:23,560
was a it was a stressor, right?
That and let me to say, OK, I'm

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00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:27,720
Lee, I can't do this anymore.
And then be, you know, what else

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00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:29,080
do I do?
And then thirdly, I was like,

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00:17:29,120 --> 00:17:32,920
OK, so my as my as a developer
research agenda is going to have

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00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:34,280
to be focused on some of these
issues.

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00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:38,120
That that definitely makes
sense.

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00:17:38,120 --> 00:17:44,120
So you you've worked across high
Ed federal policy space and

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00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:48,240
research communities.
What first pulled you into the

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00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:51,960
intersection of education and
policy?

314
00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:54,880
And I know you talked about this
K12 classroom experience.

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00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:57,360
Was that it?
Or, you know, when did you start

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00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:00,480
bridging together policy and
education?

317
00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:03,800
So, yeah, so I had to go back.
So I have a lot of different

318
00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:06,920
experiment experiences.
So I neglected to mention when I

319
00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:09,680
was an undergraduate, I was very
active on campus.

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00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:11,560
I was vice president, student
government.

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00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:13,320
I was actually appointed
student.

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00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:15,760
I was a student representative,
council trustees.

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00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:19,120
So what led me to my policy
interest?

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00:18:19,120 --> 00:18:21,160
First, I was running for student
government right at the, at the

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00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:22,960
it's kind of starts for a lot of
people.

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00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:26,760
And then I found out that
Pennsylvania had a legislative

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00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:30,560
fellowship program.
And so I had like a semester

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00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:31,520
left.
Oh, I had to finish all my

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00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:33,400
coursework and I had to do with
my student teaching.

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00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:35,560
I would have finished in the
fall, but I was like, that

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00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:37,560
doesn't make any sense.
It's kind of an awkward place,

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00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:40,200
time to finish.
So I said, well, I'm going to

333
00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:42,400
apply for the scholarship.
If I get it in the fall, I'll

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00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:44,200
move my student teaching to the
spring semester.

335
00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:46,600
So I applied for it.
I got it.

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00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:50,520
So I spent a semester working in
Harrisburg, which is the state

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00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:54,040
which is the capital of, of the
Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.

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00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:58,680
So I spent a semester working
for, at the time he was chairman

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00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:00,240
of the Education committee, a
Republican.

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00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:04,440
So I worked for him for a
semester and it was really kind

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00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:08,040
of my, my first time.
And one of the final projects we

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00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:10,520
had, we had to draft a bill and
then we have to, we have to

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00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:14,960
present it.
And I remember one of the black

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00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:17,120
state representative,
Philadelphia, and he's retired

345
00:19:17,120 --> 00:19:19,000
now and I can't remember his
name.

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00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:21,920
China took me under his wing,
you know, because I was, I'm, I

347
00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:23,520
was always ambitious as an
undergrad.

348
00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:27,440
So I would, I would go visit
Philadelphia area state or state

349
00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:29,320
representatives and introduce
myself.

350
00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:31,560
And one of them took me under
his wing.

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00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:35,360
And I remember the day I gave my
presentation, it was, I think it

352
00:19:35,360 --> 00:19:37,680
was like 7 of us in, in my
cohort.

353
00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:42,320
And he came and attended and I
remember, you know, giving my

354
00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:45,440
presentation when it was a
related to his like education

355
00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:50,000
bill and that amount of
confidence that I felt stand at

356
00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:52,360
that podium once again.
HPCL are very proud right?

357
00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:55,880
All the other students are right
students in BW is and I think

358
00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:57,600
no.
I know based on the competition

359
00:19:57,600 --> 00:19:59,920
that of all the presentations
minds with the best.

360
00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:03,240
And not only.
Knowing that staying at the

361
00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:08,360
podium, finishing, but also had
the state Rep tell me that so is

362
00:20:08,360 --> 00:20:11,240
in that moment.
I think, you know, the, the,

363
00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:17,200
the, the political, you know,
advocate, you know, scholar or

364
00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:19,600
whatever.
And then future, you know, a

365
00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:23,640
political staffer was born and
born in in that moment.

366
00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:27,000
Do you happen to by?
Any chance remember any of the

367
00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:31,360
tenants of your argument?
Yeah, I was.

368
00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:35,200
Arguing it was it was center in
the bill importance of

369
00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:39,520
supporting underserved
communities and my argument was,

370
00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:43,600
and I still make the same point
to my students and in my work is

371
00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:47,480
that the United States then and
now will eventually become a

372
00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:48,880
minority.
We knew eventually become a

373
00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:50,520
majority minority country,
right.

374
00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:55,080
So in order to make sure the
economic engine continues to go,

375
00:20:55,760 --> 00:21:00,480
you have to invest in the group
that's behind everyone else.

376
00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:02,480
We're not behind anymore because
group is coming hard.

377
00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:05,080
It's charging hard.
You know, states like Texas are

378
00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:07,000
majority minority now, right?
Minorities.

379
00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:11,160
So you have to make sure you
invest in those communities to

380
00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:15,360
make sure United States can main
continue to be economic

381
00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:18,400
superpower.
So I have to say.

382
00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:21,080
Not bad.
I'm, I'm talking to your family.

383
00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:25,440
Not bad for the young kid who
was sort of the in the mid

384
00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:28,720
range.
So to, to end up having a

385
00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:33,240
fellowship with the Commonwealth
of Pennsylvania.

386
00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:41,840
So you intern later at on the
Hill in DC through a

387
00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:44,840
congressional fellowship.
So there's sort of a, I'm seeing

388
00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:47,120
a pattern here from the state
level.

389
00:21:47,120 --> 00:21:51,840
Now, at federal level, how did
that opportunity come about and

390
00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:58,760
what experience did it teach you
that academia alone does not or

391
00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:01,560
did not?
So it's an interesting.

392
00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:04,000
Story about So I applied for the
Congressional Fellowship,

393
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:06,160
Congressional Black Congress
Foundation, and when you're

394
00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:08,800
applying the program usually,
you know, had to have an

395
00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:11,880
advanced degree.
And so I initially applied to

396
00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:15,800
that program, got it and
actually turned it down because

397
00:22:16,120 --> 00:22:18,240
after I finished Howard, I was
like, I need to spend some time

398
00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:19,840
in the school system.
And I remember the person who

399
00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:22,800
was in charge of the program, I
told her, I said, listen, I know

400
00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:24,680
this is not crazy, but I'm going
to wait another year.

401
00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:29,320
Actually, I reapplied and got it
and it really and I think when I

402
00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:32,480
in retrospect, I think about I'm
very proud of that because the

403
00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:37,040
program is really competitive
and it's even grown since since,

404
00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:40,600
you know, I've been a a fellow
fellow, but you know, applied

405
00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:43,240
for it and end up working in the
office of Congress of Major

406
00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:46,040
Owens.
The 11 at that time was 11

407
00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:49,160
grational district in New York.
He represented Brooklyn Park

408
00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:55,520
Heights Brownsville.
So you know, that was a very it

409
00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:57,560
was a the time that the
fellowship was nine months.

410
00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:01,200
Now it's a year.
So I was placed in his office as

411
00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:05,800
chief of staff was Jack on the
Ellis who I'm who's passed away

412
00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:09,800
a few years ago and I measure
her name because she I cut my

413
00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:12,400
teeth.
My boss is a civil civil rights

414
00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:17,240
activist and Jackie Ellis was a
was a long time health staffer

415
00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:23,320
and I that really every skill,
everything I learned in that

416
00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:28,680
office I still use to this very
day and it was a great

417
00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:31,800
experience.
My boss was a politician but an

418
00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:36,200
introvert, which is always which
was really a difficult.

419
00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:40,000
Transition for me.
So I spent nine months as a

420
00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:41,960
fellow.
I was finished up my fellowship

421
00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:44,960
and they said, hey, we want you
to come on as permanent staff

422
00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:48,080
because I'm essentially I'm, you
know, I'm being funded through

423
00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:49,680
the Greshen by Caucus
Foundation, right?

424
00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:52,680
Foundation is paying for me to
be in the office, so they would

425
00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:54,120
hire me as legislative
assistant.

426
00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:57,600
I spent three months as
legislative assistant handling a

427
00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:02,680
couple of policy issues and then
my, she navigated me and said,

428
00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:05,360
Hey, we're firing our
legislative director and we want

429
00:24:05,360 --> 00:24:06,640
you to be a legislative
director.

430
00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:08,440
So you have to keep in mind that
happened.

431
00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:10,560
That was, that was like a year,
right?

432
00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:13,400
So they put it in context,
legislative directors, they,

433
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:15,720
they run the policy, they run
all policy issues, right?

434
00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:18,200
You have legislative assistance
and legislative correspondence.

435
00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:21,200
So a legislative director
overseas, the entire legislative

436
00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:24,280
staff.
So from I went, I made AI made a

437
00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:28,920
major leap from a congressional
fellow to legislative director

438
00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:32,440
in a very short period of time.
And that was very challenging

439
00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:36,280
because on the hill you either
you either learn or you get

440
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:38,920
fired.
And it's that quite that simple.

441
00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:43,080
And I had to learn a lot of
policy issues, foreign affairs,

442
00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:45,520
every possible issue you could
possibly think about.

443
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:47,680
I had to be well versed.
And even though we had other

444
00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:50,240
staffers to handle those issues,
because when I went my boss's

445
00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:52,480
office, he didn't care.
I told him that he should vote

446
00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:53,720
for an amendment on the floor of
the House.

447
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:55,920
He didn't care.
Another staffer handled that

448
00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:57,880
issue.
He wanted to know right there

449
00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:01,760
why I thought he should vote.
He should support this bill or

450
00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:03,720
amendment.
So it was a, it was trial by

451
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:08,400
fire, but I survived.
So yeah.

452
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:12,840
Anyone who spent?
Time on the Hill with any of the

453
00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:17,320
legislative staff, you will know
that it is a keen ear of

454
00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:20,360
listening, but it is very
fast-paced.

455
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:24,360
So 1 issue, the next issue you
pivot to another issue.

456
00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:27,000
So you do have to have that
breadth of knowledge,

457
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:29,040
particularly as a legislative
director.

458
00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:32,520
You mentioned things that you've
learned that you still carry

459
00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:37,400
with you so if you could, what
are three top lessons that

460
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:39,320
continue to shape your work
today?

461
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:42,520
The.
The ability to communicate

462
00:25:43,120 --> 00:25:46,680
complex issues so that everyone
can understand it.

463
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:49,600
And so the other thing I should
add is by select, the director

464
00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:52,320
also served as deputy press
secretary for about two years.

465
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:56,920
So the ability to communicate,
like I said, those complex talk

466
00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:59,440
because I, you know, sometimes
you have to explain it to a

467
00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:01,680
state, you know, someone from
New York, from New York City to

468
00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:05,640
or you know, or, or the state
about an issue they may have an

469
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:09,200
understanding about.
But to make it to make it so

470
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:13,760
people understand, there's that
communication, the ability to

471
00:26:14,360 --> 00:26:17,120
consume and understand
information in a very short

472
00:26:17,120 --> 00:26:20,320
period of time.
Because I was.

473
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:22,800
Constantly daily consuming
information.

474
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:28,320
And then I think the third thing
is my ability to negotiate

475
00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:35,360
understand so most others else's
perspective and negotiate key

476
00:26:35,360 --> 00:26:37,480
points.
We talk about legislation,

477
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:40,760
getting people to support bill
my my boss had was going to

478
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:44,040
introduce in the committee we
introduced in Congress.

479
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:47,160
So, yeah.
So lastly, the ability to, you

480
00:26:47,360 --> 00:26:50,560
know, to negotiate and talk to
people.

481
00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:54,400
And I think it's funny because
we go back to when I was in

482
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:55,960
school.
The thing I neglected to say is

483
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:57,240
I got in trouble a lot from
talking.

484
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:02,160
So I had a conversation.
With a friend of mine who's also

485
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:04,120
a professor and I was, no, I was
telling my students this a

486
00:27:04,120 --> 00:27:07,480
couple weeks ago and I was
telling them that you always

487
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:10,680
have to be careful when you're
interacting with young people

488
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:15,040
because what may seem like a
negative actually may be, it may

489
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:20,600
speak to what they're good at.
I've always been a talker and

490
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:24,440
now I'm in a profession where I
do a bunch of talking.

491
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:27,720
And I was in another profession,
you know, you know, as a pre A

492
00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:32,160
to 12 teacher or in politics
where I talked and communicated

493
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:34,280
a lot.
So there you have it.

494
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:38,000
So speaking.
Of talking you have an upcoming

495
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:41,960
speech at the Academy of
Education that will focus on

496
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:47,440
connecting research to policy.
So if I were a doctoral student

497
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:53,880
and I would think and I'm
thinking about research and and

498
00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:57,240
research on perhaps policymakers
or research related to policy.

499
00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:01,760
What is 1 practical thing that
you would share with me if I'm a

500
00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:05,000
doc student thinking about
research and policy?

501
00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:08,720
I would look at.
Whether you're looking at state

502
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:12,680
or federal policies, I would
look at the current political

503
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:16,880
ideological shift.
What are the long term?

504
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:20,400
Ramifications from menoritized
students and and so my work is

505
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:24,720
pre-K to P3P, K to pre HD.
So as I see the pipeline, So

506
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:28,080
what at the federal and state
level these changes, what is it

507
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:29,520
going to mean from menoritized
students?

508
00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:31,600
And then it's my earlier point
about the economic engine,

509
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:32,560
because they're going to drive
it.

510
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:35,760
Does it start or does it?
Stall.

511
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:41,000
And you know, and I.
Appreciate your honesty about

512
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:44,960
you say getting in trouble with
one of your talents is being

513
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:48,520
able to communicate, but also
getting in trouble through for

514
00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:50,880
communicating.
What would be one of the biggest

515
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:54,400
mistakes that researchers might
make when trying to get their

516
00:28:54,880 --> 00:29:02,360
findings in front of legislators
or staffers, those who make

517
00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:05,560
political decisions?
I think that one of the.

518
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:08,640
Problems is there with with
academics is that they have a

519
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:12,360
tendency to talk too much and be
they have to talk to you tend to

520
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:16,080
use acronyms.
Just make it plain.

521
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:18,840
And I, like I said, I'm giving
the speech National Academy

522
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:23,240
education, their postdoctoral
was Spencer Foundation, I think

523
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:26,840
grantees or fellows.
So talk with them in DC about

524
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:28,840
how do you train?
How do you, and I've been doing

525
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:30,680
a lot of that.
My my work is making the

526
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:32,880
connection between research,
public policy and the common

527
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:35,240
good.
Those 3 pillars for me right

528
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:37,560
now.
So in talking those individuals

529
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:39,960
or you know, current doctoral
students and and or other

530
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:41,600
individuals get the front of
policy makers.

531
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:47,720
Just make it plain and also find
out beyond them, whatever the

532
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:50,560
bills they've introduced.
What are the interests like some

533
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:52,120
some stuff was a website.
You know, you have to

534
00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:54,560
personalize the experience.
You may suck.

535
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:56,800
You may have done some research,
but dig a little deeper to

536
00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:58,880
someone else and make a
connection to something

537
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:02,400
foundational.
Wife is on or or the husband is

538
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:05,680
on.
So you know also personalize the

539
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:08,880
experience and you don't have
much time so you better you

540
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:11,000
better make sure.
That's why I said don't get too

541
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:13,800
too talkative.
Just making me clear and concise

542
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:16,200
so I.
I want to ask one question

543
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:20,760
before we pivot a bit, but I've
been thinking about this, that

544
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:23,400
all politics are personal and
some yes.

545
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:28,440
Yeah, I mean it, certainly.
Is because the, the topics that

546
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:31,680
you know what this local state
of federal level these these

547
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:35,560
topics often very personal for
these members, especially if

548
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:37,600
they introduced a bill.
Now look, somebody else might

549
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:39,440
have given.
Let me be clear there, there's

550
00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:41,560
some some context there somebody
else.

551
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:44,400
And often sometimes you could be
a lobbyist or other policy maker

552
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:46,640
or constituent give them ideas
for bills.

553
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:50,920
But once you you introduce it,
your name is on it, right?

554
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:54,440
So it, it is essentially, even
if it was someone else's, like

555
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:56,120
adopting a child, it is now
yours.

556
00:30:56,840 --> 00:30:59,840
So yeah.
But ever you have to, you have

557
00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:02,640
to, if you can get a make a
personal connection, if they

558
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:05,320
went to the same university,
something you got some kind of

559
00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:07,600
personal connection, It, it
makes a difference.

560
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:09,880
I know I've sat in there, I've
sat in those rooms before.

561
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:12,800
And you know, when, when
there's, you know, you've sat

562
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:15,800
with, you know, lobbyists, high
profile, other policy makers,

563
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:17,880
some other places.
If you can make a personal

564
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:20,000
connection, it makes a, it makes
a huge difference.

565
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:22,440
The other point I want to make
is staffers do all the work

566
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:25,240
right?
Having a relationship with a

567
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:28,480
with a member is probably far
less likely than you develop

568
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:32,680
relationship with staff well.
Thank you for that.

569
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:37,840
Tidbit for those of us who who
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570
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579
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:24,880
Listen.
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580
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:28,960
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581
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:32,800
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00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:36,720
unlock hidden insights and spark
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583
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:42,480
The power of listening turns
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584
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:44,720
educational excellence and
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585
00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:49,840
We've launched the XE Listening
Tour, a journey dedicated to

586
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:53,760
amplifying every voice,
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00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:56,040
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588
00:32:56,840 --> 00:33:00,600
This week, seek out a voice
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00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:05,600
member, a parent, or a student.
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590
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:10,120
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591
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edupxe.com.
We're speaking with.

595
00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:35,320
Doctor Larry J Walker, who is
associate professor and doctor

596
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:40,320
program coordinator at the
University of Central Florida.

597
00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:47,720
So, Larry, in your 2017 book How
the Obama Presidency Changed the

598
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:51,040
Political Landscape, you
explored whether the

599
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:55,080
administration reshape the
nation's economic, educational,

600
00:33:55,200 --> 00:34:00,520
and political realities.
Looking back now, what has been

601
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:08,280
the lasting shift that you see?
So, you know, it's interesting.

602
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:12,360
Because I talked about history,
right the the the Obama

603
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:14,880
presidency absolutely without a
question first black president

604
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:19,360
fundamentally changed this
country forever as an.

605
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:21,880
As a As someone.
Who sent us a lot of my work in

606
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:25,600
history there.
We I think we are experiencing

607
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:29,800
similar we saw at the end of at
the end of World War One and

608
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:32,000
then the black community
experienced the red summer of

609
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:35,000
1919.
Consequently the Coy massacre in

610
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:38,719
Florida, Rosewood etcetera.
And what I'm explicitly saying

611
00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:48,600
is that there is always been a
response to black progress in

612
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:50,960
this country.
And I think the Obama

613
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:55,880
presidency, which was limited in
controversy, right?

614
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:58,480
There's no no major
controversial issues besides

615
00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:01,240
wearing a tan suit.
This is not to suggest President

616
00:35:01,240 --> 00:35:03,480
Obama was flawless.
He certainly was not.

617
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:06,880
No politician is.
But he was drama free.

618
00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:12,800
He could articulate to you his
policy positions and.

619
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:15,920
I would also.
Remind those who were listening,

620
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:19,520
watching, etcetera is that he
inherited the worst recession in

621
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:21,440
U.S. history and turned it
around.

622
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:25,720
Affordable Care Act, I can keep
going.

623
00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:29,480
That's been dismantled.
But you know, you know the

624
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:33,640
country went from a recession
under Bush junior to the

625
00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:42,360
prospering economically.
And how?

626
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:45,160
Do you think that is shaped
where we are today?

627
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:47,840
I.
Think.

628
00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:55,320
That there is a long history in
this country of struggling when.

629
00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:01,200
Excellence or generally?
Just society and overall is

630
00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:07,320
centered within experiences of
other people President and Mrs.

631
00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:11,880
Obama both you know and you
know, obviously his background

632
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:16,360
her people from Chicago well
educated, extraordinarily

633
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:20,920
extraordinary black folks who
who epitomize black excellence.

634
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:23,920
I think that the, I think that
there's some people in this

635
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:26,960
country who even may have voted
for him eventually struggle with

636
00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:33,400
that, with that, that what
America is to be centered within

637
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:39,720
a family that is, you know, a
group of people historically

638
00:36:39,720 --> 00:36:42,280
that had been marginalized since
16/19.

639
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:47,680
I'm pausing.
I'm sad.

640
00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:50,840
That's my pause.
I'm.

641
00:36:51,240 --> 00:36:58,320
I'm internalizing that so well
with the recent hollowing out of

642
00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:03,280
the Institution for Educational
Sciences IES and the

643
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:07,040
cancellation of nearly 1,000,000
in research contracts.

644
00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:11,200
This is by the Department of
Education, Art Education

645
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:15,840
Department, actually, Ed.
How should we think about the

646
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:21,480
future of evidence based policy
making in education in general,

647
00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:24,320
but particularly at the federal
level?

648
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:27,120
Yeah, so.
Data is.

649
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:30,600
Really important data drives
everything, particularly in our

650
00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:34,480
society.
It's going to have serious.

651
00:37:34,720 --> 00:37:35,920
Long term.
Implications.

652
00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:38,520
I don't and like I said, I think
when I when I talk to people

653
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:40,560
when they ask me questions about
you know you talk about DOE and

654
00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:44,360
particularly what when I have to
explain to them what happens

655
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:46,320
when you start pulling on
levers.

656
00:37:47,240 --> 00:37:50,920
A lot of times it depends how
interconnected things are.

657
00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:54,240
You may not release and you know
you have those, you know wedges

658
00:37:54,240 --> 00:37:56,800
etcetera.
You may not realize what is

659
00:37:56,800 --> 00:38:00,200
happening way down the line if
you want like an assembly line.

660
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:03,720
So to your point is, there's
some there we have.

661
00:38:03,720 --> 00:38:06,280
Some serious.
Problems here as it relates the

662
00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:09,480
federal government needs to need
to collect have those

663
00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:12,480
individuals who can collect
understand and interpret data.

664
00:38:12,720 --> 00:38:15,280
It also needs to be accessible
to act at you know IES and all

665
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:18,760
you know to folks like us.
If we can't access it, how can

666
00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:20,880
we figure out how to solve some
more societal issues?

667
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:27,720
So then you become stuck and
that economic.

668
00:38:27,720 --> 00:38:29,320
Engine.
Stalls.

669
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:33,680
And and to follow up on that
though.

670
00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:39,360
I'm just wondering at the
federal level, how then if we

671
00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:43,440
dismantled, for example, IES,
how do we assess the

672
00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:48,120
effectiveness of our policies
for educational equity and

673
00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:50,920
excellence?
Yeah, that's going to be very.

674
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:54,560
Difficult right now and.
I mean, just completely honest.

675
00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:58,480
We're we're in a, we're in a
we're, we're, we're in a

676
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:02,680
paradigm shift and I.
Think that people?

677
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:05,560
Are some people get it and some
people do not.

678
00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:08,920
Now look, however you view that
we're in a paradox ship, though

679
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:11,480
the country is, is, is
dramatically changed.

680
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:16,200
So I must tell you as a as a, as
a researcher, a policy person

681
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:21,840
who cares about the common glue,
who is also a father that I am.

682
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:26,960
I am committed.
To making sure my son's future

683
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:29,640
is bright as he has as many
opportunities and as bright as

684
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:34,120
whatever opportunities I had.
I cannot in good conscience, and

685
00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:36,600
this is nothing to do with
academia, the job right that I

686
00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:41,720
cannot even conscious as a
parent to to stand steadfast if

687
00:39:41,720 --> 00:39:43,600
I think that his life is going
to be made difficult.

688
00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:49,040
Not as a parent and all.
The degrees and all that other

689
00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:50,320
stuff.
Doesn't matter to me.

690
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:56,200
And I'll, I'll, I'll bring it
back to Philadelphia and what I

691
00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:58,160
said again in terms of the
history of the city.

692
00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:03,280
And, and that is, that is my, my
orientation.

693
00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:06,920
So I will continue to fight for
what I believe is right in the

694
00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:10,920
common good.
So how how that plays out, we'll

695
00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:14,680
see.
And I'm wondering too.

696
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:18,320
With limited.
Access to.

697
00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:22,680
I would say reputable data or
evidence.

698
00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:28,880
What other mechanisms might
exist for us to be able to Fact

699
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:35,480
Check or to monitor policies
before improving educational

700
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:39,120
outcomes?
And I mean I'm.

701
00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:43,400
Saying outcomes and often folks
think about So what happens on a

702
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:47,040
test or an exam, but it's not
necessarily what's happening on

703
00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:52,280
the nape or some exam, but
accessing the broad spectrum of

704
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:57,120
of positive outcomes so as some
as research it's.

705
00:40:57,120 --> 00:40:59,360
Going to be part of, it's going
to be our responsibility to

706
00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:02,200
continue to do the work we do in
terms of collected data

707
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:04,840
individually and then with
colleagues.

708
00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:08,200
I'm at UCF, we mentioned Doctor
Wilkinson, etcetera.

709
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:11,840
It is going to be important to
connect with other researchers

710
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:17,200
with similar interests and work
collectively together to collect

711
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:19,640
data, analyze it, and publish
it.

712
00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:23,040
Now when I say publish.
It I don't mean just peer.

713
00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:24,720
Reviewed journal articles,
because I think, you know, I

714
00:41:24,720 --> 00:41:26,880
talked before I do a lot of
political commentary.

715
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:29,800
I wrote an op-ed not too long
ago for Orlando.

716
00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:32,680
So I, I mean, there's different
ways in which you can get that

717
00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:34,080
information out on different
platforms.

718
00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:35,200
We don't we don't live in a
society.

719
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:37,120
We just publish an article
that's great.

720
00:41:37,240 --> 00:41:39,520
The reality is only a certain
number of people want to read

721
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:41,880
it.
There are far greater ways as a

722
00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:44,520
researcher to get in.
Look, not saying it's going to

723
00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:47,080
be challenging, but there's so
many social media in particular,

724
00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:49,320
there's so many other ways of
the academics engaging with the

725
00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:53,720
public outside of this idea of
the ivory tower or this, this

726
00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:55,400
publication game in which we
live in.

727
00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:58,440
Because that's the way that's
where the people, they're

728
00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:01,280
outside of the ivory tower.
And like I said, they're not in

729
00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:05,360
our street journals.
So you live, you're currently

730
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:06,040
in.
Florida.

731
00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:11,600
And so Florida has been in some
ways the epicenter of, I would

732
00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:17,920
say sort of the micro experiment
of some of the larger federal

733
00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:20,240
educational policies that we're
seeing.

734
00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:23,800
So using Florida as a case study
for the shifts we're seeing

735
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:28,200
nationwide, how are these
political changes fundamentally

736
00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:32,640
altering the culture of higher
education, particularly for

737
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:36,560
excellence and equity across
diverse communities?

738
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:45,680
So you have book banning issues
around gender or de gendering or

739
00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:49,960
re gendering individuals,
silencing them around those kind

740
00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:51,720
of issues.
Yeah.

741
00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:56,080
So take it how how you you would
like, but how do you think

742
00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:59,440
what's happening in Florida is
shaping the culture of higher

743
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:04,280
education in particular?
So Florida is at the epicenter.

744
00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:08,200
Of everything you said, it's
usually Texas, but this time the

745
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:09,800
last several years has been
Florida.

746
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:13,920
So you're right, it's all this
started in Florida and Texas,

747
00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:16,800
you know, Nebraska, you know,
whatever on the state you want

748
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:18,640
to identify and obviously
certainly at the federal global

749
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:25,320
so.
I think that.

750
00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:28,160
What we've seen.
Obviously in state of.

751
00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:31,480
Florida legislations that pass
you know anti DEI legislate

752
00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:35,720
etcetera has has rewritten has.
Helped change we.

753
00:43:35,720 --> 00:43:40,440
Rewrite the rules.
Because besides the DI but there

754
00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:42,200
are other.
Things about post tenure review,

755
00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:43,880
other things that state changes
they had made.

756
00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:48,240
So depending on what side the
aisle, you, your ideological

757
00:43:48,240 --> 00:43:50,480
views, some people might think
that's good, that might be bad.

758
00:43:50,720 --> 00:43:53,600
But it goes back to the point is
typically the faculty members,

759
00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:56,640
do they feel comfortable enough
having having conversations that

760
00:43:56,640 --> 00:43:59,600
are really important as it
relates to what it is mean to be

761
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:02,320
fundamentally American.
And look, I'm not when I say

762
00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:05,880
fundamentally America, I'm not
the same a specific person, but

763
00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:09,240
because it this is a this
country's a wide is a is a is a

764
00:44:09,240 --> 00:44:11,320
wide has a wide tapestry of
individuals.

765
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:15,920
But specifically at the higher
education, are we headed in the

766
00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:18,440
right direction and once again,
all connected to the economic

767
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:20,440
engine, right.
You said outcomes, not

768
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:23,840
necessarily testing outcomes.
But let's be listen, this and

769
00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:26,240
capitalism.
It is about the economic engine.

770
00:44:26,240 --> 00:44:31,240
Let's be clear, it is.
And so if that, if we don't have

771
00:44:31,240 --> 00:44:34,120
people at the head of the of,
you know, of the boat, driving

772
00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:36,760
the boat in the right direction
in the United States, we're

773
00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:40,000
going to encounter some
challenges and.

774
00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:42,880
You know it'll.
Happen and I think a lot of

775
00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:46,040
things about America's I want to
highlight also is that I don't

776
00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:49,440
think we've done a very good job
of and I talk about I'm a fan of

777
00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:52,640
I love history and having people
not understand U.S. history, but

778
00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:54,760
world history.
There are a lot of lessons to be

779
00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:57,240
learned outside of the United
States in terms of what other

780
00:44:57,240 --> 00:44:59,440
countries encountered, and I
just don't think a lot of

781
00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:00,760
Americans have been exposed to
that.

782
00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:07,120
And so.
Let's draw.

783
00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:09,400
A through line for that.
So when you're mentoring

784
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:13,000
students, whether undergraduate
or graduate, how do you help

785
00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:17,200
them think about impact?
Beyond.

786
00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:21,240
The classroom.
So one thing I talk about

787
00:45:21,240 --> 00:45:23,240
students is particularly.
Like I said, I do masters,

788
00:45:23,240 --> 00:45:25,720
mostly masters, doctor, doctor
students, but I have so no

789
00:45:25,720 --> 00:45:27,760
thesis committee for
undergraduate and some work some

790
00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:30,120
other undergraduate students who
start up my my support.

791
00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:33,640
So what I essentially tell them
is, you know, first encourage

792
00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:36,640
them based on whatever their
interest, their work is, is that

793
00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:40,040
go out and look to transform the
world, right?

794
00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:41,600
Is this?
Kid who you know was.

795
00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:44,160
Who talked about in high school
was a mediocre student.

796
00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:45,920
I never thought I'd be working
on CAP.

797
00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:49,240
I'd be at the White House for
bill signing or on the

798
00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:52,280
negotiating language with the
US, sent with senators, not

799
00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:53,280
necessarily members of the
House.

800
00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:57,080
But even when I negotiated with
people on the other chamber or

801
00:45:57,120 --> 00:45:59,280
sitting at this dance would give
me speeches, I never envisioned

802
00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:02,360
any of this, right.
So I encourage them to go and

803
00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:05,280
change the world.
You know it it.

804
00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:08,080
They're they're.
There are.

805
00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:11,240
Limitless possibilities.
We let's be clear there, you

806
00:46:11,240 --> 00:46:13,400
know, depending on who you are,
they're going to be challenges,

807
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:16,320
they're going to be barriers set
in your way, but no different

808
00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:19,800
than our members of our
community and family members

809
00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:21,320
they encounter you had to do
with Jim Crow.

810
00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:28,200
And so.
Go be bold, transform, not just.

811
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:29,640
The country transform.
The world.

812
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:34,120
You, you know, I, I like that
thought.

813
00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:36,880
Because it it reminds me of
something that I heard a long

814
00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:39,360
time ago.
You know, we used to ask young

815
00:46:39,360 --> 00:46:41,840
folks.
You know, who do you?

816
00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:42,800
Want to be?
What do you want to?

817
00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:44,360
Be usually what do you want to
be?

818
00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:48,960
I remember someone changing that
question saying what problems do

819
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:52,560
you want to solve in the world
and that.

820
00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:56,480
Was just so profound.
Because I think it shifts from,

821
00:46:56,680 --> 00:47:03,040
it still has its agentive sense
of agency, but it gives a sense

822
00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:07,200
of purpose versus just a matter
of doing something and standing

823
00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:08,800
in the place.
I want to be a plumber.

824
00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:12,240
I want to be president.
I want to be a baseball player.

825
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:14,720
But this is what problems do you
want to solve?

826
00:47:14,720 --> 00:47:17,720
And that speaks to your
mentorship is change the world,

827
00:47:17,720 --> 00:47:21,200
but be a positive influence in
the world in some ways.

828
00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:25,960
If you can, any thoughts about
that question of what problems

829
00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:27,400
would you like to solve in the
world?

830
00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:30,200
Yeah, you know what?
There's a lot of them.

831
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:33,840
It's funny because I really
been, like I said, I focus on

832
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:35,000
that.
I mentioned early these three

833
00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:37,440
pillars, you know, research,
public policy and the common

834
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:39,320
good.
And I, I should make that a part

835
00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:41,440
of my focus on my policy
background.

836
00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:44,720
And just recently I, you know, I
wrote it, I've been in Orlando

837
00:47:44,720 --> 00:47:47,960
Sentinel about, you know,
unhoused or homeless

838
00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:49,880
individuals.
Think about how many problems we

839
00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:53,680
could solve that we made sure
families, veterans, etcetera had

840
00:47:53,680 --> 00:47:56,400
somewhere to live and thrive and
do well.

841
00:47:57,240 --> 00:48:00,200
Yeah, I mean, that's just one
societal issue by itself that

842
00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:02,680
being solved.
You make, I mean, students are

843
00:48:02,680 --> 00:48:05,200
more likely to attend school,
more likely graduate.

844
00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:07,360
We're supporting veterans, we're
supporting families.

845
00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:08,760
They encounter challenging
times.

846
00:48:09,240 --> 00:48:12,360
So once again, it would also
have a net positive net income,

847
00:48:12,360 --> 00:48:14,560
the economic income impact on
the nation.

848
00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:16,600
So that's just one societal
issue.

849
00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:20,240
I mean, there are the million
and one I could talk about, but

850
00:48:20,240 --> 00:48:23,280
I that's the one at the kind of
forefront of my mind because I

851
00:48:23,280 --> 00:48:26,160
just recently wrote about it.
Yeah, I mean that's.

852
00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:32,840
Powerful you and.
And this almost speaks to we

853
00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:35,880
think about issues and what we
want to solve, but some of those

854
00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:40,480
aren't necessarily root cause
issues, they're symptoms.

855
00:48:40,520 --> 00:48:41,920
Of.
Other matters.

856
00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:45,480
So if you go back to Maslow's
hierarchy of basic needs, when

857
00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:49,160
you're, yeah, you're meeting
basic needs, it's sort of

858
00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:52,000
foundational to some of the
larger other sort of needs.

859
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:56,000
You know, how can you be
socially productive when you

860
00:48:56,000 --> 00:48:59,520
don't have housing?
Yeah, yeah.

861
00:49:01,720 --> 00:49:03,440
So where do you see the greatest
opportunity?

862
00:49:03,440 --> 00:49:06,520
Right now for scholars and
policymakers to collaborate

863
00:49:06,520 --> 00:49:09,600
constructively.
So you talked about this idea of

864
00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:14,200
how we need to get together in
the absence of evidence and data

865
00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:16,960
in a data desert, how do we work
together?

866
00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:20,560
But what is the greatest
opportunity right now, whether

867
00:49:20,560 --> 00:49:25,080
it is in collaborating for data
or in other ways, for scholars

868
00:49:25,080 --> 00:49:29,080
and policymakers to collaborate
constructively?

869
00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:34,040
So getting together to.
Look at not only understanding

870
00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:36,640
what is some of the like
contemporary issues, but what

871
00:49:36,640 --> 00:49:41,040
are the long term challenges.
Because you have to for.

872
00:49:41,040 --> 00:49:43,000
People's heart, but you have to
see behind yourself.

873
00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:46,200
I've made a point.
Of the people that come behind

874
00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:47,400
you.
What are some of the challenges

875
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:49,600
they couldn't encounter in a
world that would be more

876
00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:53,480
dominant by AI?
Particularly job loss.

877
00:49:53,600 --> 00:49:55,640
There are a lot of.
People there, there are

878
00:49:55,640 --> 00:49:58,080
literally millions of people
worldwide, they're going to lose

879
00:49:58,080 --> 00:50:00,120
their job over the next jobs
over the next several years

880
00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:04,240
because AI in particular.
So what do we do from, you know,

881
00:50:04,240 --> 00:50:07,200
research policy perspective?
And once again, I talked about

882
00:50:07,200 --> 00:50:09,560
unhoused AI issue by itself,
right?

883
00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:11,360
What are, what are we going to
do about that?

884
00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:13,600
Making sure people have the
necessary skills to do something

885
00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:17,840
else because we're already
seeing corporations layoff

886
00:50:17,840 --> 00:50:21,720
people because they're saying
way I can have the technology

887
00:50:21,720 --> 00:50:24,920
can do it.
That is going to dramatically

888
00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:26,760
increase over the next couple of
years.

889
00:50:29,600 --> 00:50:31,480
And for those of us in who are
in higher.

890
00:50:31,480 --> 00:50:34,560
Ed, we're seeing it now where
folks are figuring out how to

891
00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:38,280
use AI for accreditation
reports, how to use AI to

892
00:50:38,280 --> 00:50:41,280
monitor and track student
progress.

893
00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:45,880
But I also was listening to the
news this morning and folks are

894
00:50:45,880 --> 00:50:50,320
going into the courtroom who
cannot necessarily for the

895
00:50:50,320 --> 00:50:57,640
defender are using AI, open AI
in particular to help make a

896
00:50:57,640 --> 00:51:00,840
case in court.
So I mean, there are different

897
00:51:00,840 --> 00:51:05,440
ways in which you can see how AI
can be used for those who might

898
00:51:05,440 --> 00:51:10,080
be marginalized or cash strapped
in some ways, but you have to

899
00:51:10,080 --> 00:51:14,480
have the tools to use it.
But at the same time outsourcing

900
00:51:14,720 --> 00:51:21,760
meaning and displacing certain
roles and responsibilities and

901
00:51:21,760 --> 00:51:26,520
and hired in other places, yeah.
So.

902
00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:30,040
If listeners walk.
Away with one insight about the

903
00:51:30,040 --> 00:51:34,280
relationship between research
policy and higher education.

904
00:51:34,280 --> 00:51:36,040
Let's stick with higher
education right now.

905
00:51:36,960 --> 00:51:40,320
What do you hope that is?
Hope that.

906
00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:41,840
They understand.
I made my point about.

907
00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:45,240
Being bold and transforming,
changing like systems have to be

908
00:51:45,240 --> 00:51:47,160
changed, but they are pushed
back and don't want to be

909
00:51:47,160 --> 00:51:50,280
changed, right?
So it's not easy, you know,

910
00:51:50,280 --> 00:51:52,880
transform.
I mention we're experiencing

911
00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:56,480
paradigm shift.
So higher education is and we'll

912
00:51:56,480 --> 00:51:59,520
have to continue to change.
Who are the people that are

913
00:51:59,520 --> 00:52:03,080
going to be in help lead that
effort, right?

914
00:52:03,080 --> 00:52:05,560
You and the people who have the
experience and knowledge, who

915
00:52:05,560 --> 00:52:07,520
also care about the people that
come up from behind.

916
00:52:11,200 --> 00:52:16,160
Doctor Mary J Walker What's?
Next for you and how might the

917
00:52:16,240 --> 00:52:20,160
Add up Accelerated Excellence
community engage with this work?

918
00:52:21,440 --> 00:52:23,080
Yeah, sure.
So, you know, like many.

919
00:52:23,080 --> 00:52:26,360
Researchers, you know,
presentations, conferences, 2

920
00:52:26,360 --> 00:52:28,240
book projects coming out in the
next two years.

921
00:52:28,680 --> 00:52:30,320
But you want to follow me on
social media?

922
00:52:31,720 --> 00:52:35,000
Instagram, Doctor Philly Alpha.
Same thing for Threads and

923
00:52:35,160 --> 00:52:37,680
Facebook.
Larry J Walker or you just look

924
00:52:37,680 --> 00:52:39,960
me up, I'm around.
I do a lot of political

925
00:52:39,960 --> 00:52:42,200
commentary, Roland Martin and
etcetera.

926
00:52:42,200 --> 00:52:46,040
So you know, I'm around.
So if you Google me, you can

927
00:52:46,040 --> 00:52:49,320
find me, follow me on social
media, let me know you heard me

928
00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:52,880
on the podcast and you know, let
me know what your thoughts and I

929
00:52:52,880 --> 00:52:54,120
look forward to the
conversation.

930
00:52:56,040 --> 00:52:58,640
So, Doctor Walker.
I want to thank you for this.

931
00:52:58,680 --> 00:53:02,360
Opportunity to learn with and
from you here at Add Up

932
00:53:02,360 --> 00:53:05,520
Accelerated Excellence, where we
seek to advance educational

933
00:53:05,520 --> 00:53:10,760
excellence and equity.
Thank you for that.

934
00:53:10,760 --> 00:53:14,080
And you know, this is Larry.
J Walker, you know, wishing

935
00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:17,280
everyone thanks for listening
and I look forward to engaging

936
00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:20,680
and continue the conversation.
Thank you for engaging with Ed

937
00:53:20,680 --> 00:53:24,040
Up Accelerated Excellence, a
member of the Ed Up Experience

938
00:53:24,040 --> 00:53:27,960
network of educational podcasts.
You can find this in other

939
00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:31,640
episodes on Spotify,
iHeartRadio, Apple Radio,

940
00:53:31,720 --> 00:53:34,960
YouTube, and other outlets where
you listen to your favorite

941
00:53:34,960 --> 00:53:38,640
podcasts.
If you like this episode, don't

942
00:53:38,640 --> 00:53:41,640
forget to follow us and share
within your network.

943
00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:46,920
To leave a comment or suggest a
guest, contact us online at EDUP

944
00:53:46,920 --> 00:53:49,800
xe.com.
A special thanks to our research

945
00:53:49,800 --> 00:53:53,480
assistant, Emma Worthington, a
PhD student of Fordham

946
00:53:53,480 --> 00:53:57,200
University's School Psychology
program, and we want to hear

947
00:53:57,200 --> 00:53:59,600
from you.
If you have feedback on this or

948
00:53:59,600 --> 00:54:03,400
other episodes or would like to
nominate a guest, contact us

949
00:54:03,400 --> 00:54:08,680
online at EDUP xe.com, where you
can join our XE Listening tour

950
00:54:08,680 --> 00:54:11,720
and leave an e-mail or a voice
message that's add up.

951
00:54:11,720 --> 00:54:13,040
Xe.com.