Dr. Marvin Lynn—Leading Educator Preparation and Justice through Collaboration & Engagement

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They're going to be recognizing
the partnership that we have

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with the Saint Vrain School
District that has been that has

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become very, very, very
productive in in so many ways.

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And Cindy Gutierrez and Barbara
Seidel started that partnership

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and I had the opportunity as a
Dean.

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And this is another important
role of a Dean is to recognize

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good work, right and say, keep
going.

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I got you.
I want to support you, right to

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be continued.
But so I didn't start that.

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But because I came in and said
and recognized that it was an

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outstanding work, I threw my
support behind it.

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And they didn't have to worry
about whether they were going to

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have a new Dean come in and
break it up or stop it.

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But then I was going to support
it because I knew I recognized

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it was good work.
So now I'm getting an award for.

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This is Eric Almonte, Assistant
Vice President for Capital

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Giving at Princeton University.
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Welcome, welcome.
Welcome to Add Up Accelerated

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Excellence, the podcast for the
advancement of educational

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excellence and equity.
And today's guest is an

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accomplished leader in the field
of higher education,

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particularly in educated
preparation.

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He is the Dean for the School of
Education and Human Development

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at the University of Colorado
Denver.

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He is Doctor Marvin Lin So
Marvin, would you please

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introduce yourself to the Ed Up
Accelerated Excellence

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community, giving voice to your
name If only you can and if you

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can give us a high level, that
elevator pitch from floor one to

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three.
Overview of the School of

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Education and Human Development
at the University of Colorado,

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Denver.
Well, Doctor Easley, thank you

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so much for having me.
I have, as you know, we've known

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each other a long time and
starting at A A/C TE and serving

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on the board together and, and
doing all that important work.

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I am thrilled to be here and,
and it's wonderful to be able to

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participate in this show.
The University of Colorado

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Denver is really the largest,
most comprehensive Graduate

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School of education of of its
kind in the state of Colorado.

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We are the second best school of
Ed and I think behind Boulder in

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the state.
But we're bigger than Boulder.

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We are one of the top schools of
Ed in the region.

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We're we're the school of
education and human development

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because while we are focused on
teacher preparation, principal

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preparation, we are also very,
very focused on preparing

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counselors, both mental health
counselors as well as school

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counselors.
We have a very robust school

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psychology program, It's a
doctoral program, and we have a

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human development and family
relations program at the

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undergraduate level that
prepares people to come in and

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and be community leaders working
in all kinds of settings.

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Our students are the most
diverse in the state.

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We have about 1200 mostly
graduate students.

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About 80% of our students are
graduate students.

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Majority of our students are
Latin X African American and

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Asian American and Indigenous.
So we are really proud of that.

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We are also a school that is
contest continue to be focused

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on equity, diversity and
inclusion and preparing young

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people and older people who
really want to go out and make a

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difference.
But who had that as a frame of

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reference as they begin their
work in school settings and

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clinics and in all these
settings in which they work.

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So really proud to be Dean at
the School of Education Human

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Development at CU Denver.
CU Denver itself is a

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comprehensive research
university.

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We actually have research one
status because we are tied to

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the N Chute School of Medicine,
which is another campus.

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But we are considered 1
institution.

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And so I have faculty who are
publishing at some of the

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highest levels.
In fact, three of my faculty are

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among the most published in
their fields and so really

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excited about being at this
place.

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But we also have people who are
committed to be to being

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outstanding teachers, right, and
who focus on that.

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And we have others who are
active in community service and

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so on.
Our alumni are some of the best

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in the world.
State treasurer is an alum of

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mine.
We have a woman who is the

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inaugural director of executive
director of the early childhood

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in the state of Colorado is is
my alum and the state

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Superintendent right now is an
alum of mine.

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So it goes on and on and on.
I just, I just can't say enough

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wonderful things about the
school of education of human

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development.
So you Denver, and just happy to

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be in the position of leadership
at such a time as this when,

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when things in the country are,
as we say, challenging.

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So in the challenging times,
we're going to get into some of

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those, but it's just amazing to
hear about the, the reach that

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your school is having,
particularly having alumni

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serving in key roles within the
state in the field of education.

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But also I, I'm, I'm, it's
really heartfelt to hear you

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talk about community working,
community development.

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So this is going to be a
wonderful conversation today.

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So I'm going to refer to you as
Marvin.

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I know you're Doctor Lynn.
Absolutely.

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And as you mentioned, we've
known each other for a while.

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So Marvin, you began your career
as a teacher in New York City.

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You also worked in Chicago in
the public schools, mind you.

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Yes, right.
So looking back, is there a

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moment from those early years
that continue to shape how you

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approach and think about
education today?

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Well, Jacob, as you know, I grew
up, I say poor working class

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because on one side, my mother
and my family on my mom's side

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was very poor.
But I had a stepdad who did, who

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worked in the steel mills.
And so I had understood the, the

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whole sort of the working class
ethos and, and what it meant to

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really go to work every day.
And my, my stepdad was a man who

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used his hands right.
He was also a union worker.

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And so growing up on the South
Side of Chicago, we, we had

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struggles and challenges and
school was a safe place for me.

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School was a place where black
teachers said, you're going to

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be somebody and we're going to
support you in your development

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in the future.
And so I really had a love for

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school.
And that really translated into

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me wanting to become a teacher
because I thought they did that

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for me.
I want to do that for somebody

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else.
And as I grew up, as I went to

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college, as I started to to go
out and do field work in the

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schools, I would see these young
black boys who reminded me of

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me.
I remember being at Newberry

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Academy over on in, in downtown
in Chicago, which is not far

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from where I live.
And it was supposed to be this

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kind of elite elementary school
with these mostly white middle

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class kids.
And I see this, this one black

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boy who looks like his, he's
unkempt.

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His hair hadn't been combed.
And you can see, you know, he,

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he had some struggles.
And I just went over to him and

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I just touched the top of his
head and I said, how you doing?

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You know, and, and I was there
to, to, to observe, but I wanted

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to make sure I had an impact on
that kid because somebody did

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that for me.
And, and that was really my, my

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whole impetus is is to, to go
into teaching to really help to

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make young black boys and girls
feel seen, feel supported, feel

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loved, feel cared for.
And that really is what I tried

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to do as a teacher.
I wasn't a teacher for very long

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because I got the research bug
early on in in my life.

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And the next thing I know I was
a doctor program.

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But I, I went into teacher
education with that mindset that

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I would, as a teacher educator,
prepare teachers who were going

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to be the kind of teachers that
that cared for me, that that

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loved me.
And that I would give teachers

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the background, the knowledge,
the skills, hopefully to be able

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to, to have a positive impact,
particularly on kids in under

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resourced, underserved
communities and so on.

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And so that was my impetus as a
teacher educator.

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And as a Dean, I have even more
of an opportunity, as you know,

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Jacob, to impact who we
hireright, the kind of teacher

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educators that we hire that are
going to come into our buildings

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and into our our schools and
colleges of education.

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Really with a commitment to, to
transforming the lives of young

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people, but also to engage my
seasoned teacher educators in

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professional development
opportunities and opportunities

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to get back in partnering with,
for example, the Denver Public

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Schools, the Aurora Public
Schools, where we where we have

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a lot of challenges and to and
to really be key partners with

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those districts and to engage my
faculty in conversations and in

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good work that helps advance
those districts, but also

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advances the school of
education, human development.

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And so that we are then together
preparing people who are going

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to go out and really make a
difference in the community.

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And so that's really the whole
reason I'm here and in this role

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is to really be able to make a
difference on the lives on

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behalf of those kids like who
are like me, who, you know, I

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had a good mother.
My mother cared for me.

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My mother was a loving mother.
And so I will take anything from

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her.
But she, she, she struggled to

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provide the support that I
needed, especially in the

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academic area.
And so teachers stood in that

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gap for me and I and I will
forever be grateful to those

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educators, Missus Williams,
Missus White and, and so many

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others who stood in that gap to
make sure that I was going to be

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OK.
Missus Missus Williams was my

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fifth grade teacher.
And I remember she had

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transferred from a different
school and she would, she would

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refer to our school as the name
of the old school which had

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closed down.
And we would laugh and joke, but

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Missus Williams was the person
who took me to college at DePaul

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University as a freshman.
So, So look, 5th grade all the

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way up to college, freshman,
right?

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Missus Williams was there and
bought me a small refrigerator

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to put in my room so that I
would have food when the

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cafeteria had closed and just
took care of my personal and

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social needs.
And my mother was right there

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with her.
But my mother wasn't able to do

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that.
And so these are the kinds of

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educators that that I had in my
life.

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And, and again, for me, this job
is really about building that.

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And, and again, understanding
that I have folks working across

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different fields, counseling,
school psychology, human

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development and relations and,
and having that same sort of

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focus in those fields as well,
because that is also important.

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And again, working with my my,
my faculty, with my staff and

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students to hopefully bring
about that spirit.

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So I absolutely, I absolutely
love that and shout out to those

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teachers who use mentioned who
went above and beyond.

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But there were two words in what
you just described that stand

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out.
And you and I have had

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conversations offline about some
of these issues, but one is

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since the community.
So you had a teacher who helped

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you at an early age to even
think about going to college and

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then help you get settled into
college.

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But you also talked about a love
for for school.

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So you love school.
So you think about the work and

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the partnerships you're doing
now.

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And I'm asking this question
because we we have standards,

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state standards and national
standards, but loving school is

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not one of those standards.
So how do we create the

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conditions so that students like
you and and like me and others

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00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:42,120
can say I actually love school?
Yeah, I I think we have to care

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about our students.
In fact, we have to love our

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students.
And I know we're, when you and I

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were coming up, a teacher could,
could show love and be

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affectionate and, and, and I had
teachers who I spent time at

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their home and things like that.
And there was never anything

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weird about that.
Today, we can't do that, right?

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We have to be, we have to
operate a little differently in

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terms of how we interact with
students.

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00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:10,600
But I, I think there are still
ways to show love and to show

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00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:16,360
care and concern for students
livelihoods as a Dean, you know,

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00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:19,800
as you know, we have a lot of
students who, who come to us

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00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:23,680
with concerns with, with issues.
And I spent a lot of time with

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those students.
I have a, a couple of students

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00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:31,760
that I spent time with yesterday
and we have that's our second

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00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:34,280
meeting where they were
expressing some real concerns

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00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:37,000
about their program and and
their progression through the

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00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:39,440
program.
And I wanted them to know like,

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we are going to make sure that
there is a conversation about

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00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:47,720
these concerns and that we are
being proactive in trying to

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move you forward to make sure
that you're successful.

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00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:53,040
But also trying to make sure
that students who come behind

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00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:56,520
you have a different experience,
a better experience.

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00:15:56,520 --> 00:16:01,000
And so that that showing of that
concern and that that, that

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00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:05,400
you're accessible to them is
important.

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00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:11,800
I, I find that my best teachers
are teachers that we're busy,

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00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:13,200
right?
And I, so I couldn't just walk

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00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:15,400
into their office and, and say,
Hey, let's sit down.

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00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:18,480
But, but when I did have to find
the time I can, I can think

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00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:22,200
about Daniel Solorcino at UCLA
who was my doctoral advisor.

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00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:25,800
Danny was very busy.
Danny still is very busy with

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00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:28,040
supporting and mentoring
hundreds of students.

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00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:30,440
So it may take you a couple of
weeks to get a meeting.

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00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:35,400
But when you sit down in that
office with Danny, he's going to

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00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:37,280
make you feel like you're the
only student he has.

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00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:41,680
And he's going to give you
advice that's going to encourage

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00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:46,440
you, motivate you and propel you
forward in ways that you didn't

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00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:49,400
don't even imagine, right.
And I remember I used to get

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00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:51,760
upset with him because he was so
busy and I couldn't get to him

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00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:53,800
right away.
And I walked out of that office

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00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:55,880
thinking, man, he's the best
advisor on the planet.

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00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:59,200
And, and that's the kind of
environment I try to create also

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00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:03,200
with my students, right to so
that they feel supported, that

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00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:06,920
they feel like, hey, I'm going
to be all right, I'm going to be

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00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:09,280
successful.
And that that even after they

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00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:12,760
graduate, that this is also this
will be a home place for them.

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00:17:13,599 --> 00:17:18,839
And so I think if we create the
environment where students feel

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00:17:18,839 --> 00:17:22,800
cared for and even loved,
they're going to want to come,

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00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:24,280
they're going to want to be
there, they're going to want to

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00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:27,800
be successful.
I agree with you.

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00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:31,360
So we're going to get back into
when we're going to talk about

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00:17:31,360 --> 00:17:35,920
the deanship a bit more.
And you've held roles as a Dean

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00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:38,200
at Indiana University of South
Bend.

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00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:43,200
That's what we first, we first
met, you were in there, and then

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00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:48,240
you had the opportunity to
support and work with your

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00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:52,080
colleagues at Portland State
before coming to Denver.

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00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:56,960
So, different times, different
contexts, But how have those

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00:17:57,200 --> 00:18:02,480
experiences across time and
space shaped your understanding

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00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:05,800
of the roles and
responsibilities of a Dean

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00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:12,680
globally?
Yes, well, I'm glad that my

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00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:15,440
first Dean ship was at a place
like Indiana University South

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00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:16,480
Bend.
It was small.

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00:18:17,120 --> 00:18:22,120
I had mostly undergraduates.
It was a, a, a regional

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00:18:22,120 --> 00:18:25,600
comprehensive university, so
there wasn't a focus on

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00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:28,120
research.
So in that way it was a bit of a

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00:18:28,120 --> 00:18:31,120
mismatch.
But what I liked about that was

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00:18:31,120 --> 00:18:34,640
the was the intense focus on
community and community

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00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:38,240
relationships and community
being central to everything.

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00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:43,360
We did the at IU South Bend.
Again, I have probably 3-4

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00:18:43,360 --> 00:18:48,600
hundred students maybe you know,
1520 faculty.

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00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:51,280
So it was small.
It, it's a, it was a good first

300
00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:54,320
Dean ship, right?
And, and I couldn't build

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00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:57,120
something.
I had a directive from

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00:18:57,560 --> 00:18:59,920
leadership to go in and grow
enrollment.

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00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:02,880
We were able to stabilize it and
grow it in some areas.

304
00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:06,520
And so I appreciated having the
opportunity.

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00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:09,080
It was also where I got
introduced to organizations like

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00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:12,680
a ACTE and develop connections
with folks like yourself and

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00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:15,360
others.
And so I got a chance to get

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00:19:15,360 --> 00:19:18,560
introduced to the to the world
of the Dean ship and get to know

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00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:20,840
a lot of Deans.
And I think that was also the

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00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:24,600
time that we began conversations
around starting this black

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00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:27,200
education Dean's group that that
we started.

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00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:28,880
I think back then that's
correct.

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00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:30,960
Or maybe it was a little after
that.

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00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:35,680
I'm not trying to remember, but,
but it was, it was a great,

315
00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:39,840
great experience and being part
of a system I used to have been,

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00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:45,200
is one of four or five
comprehensive, regional

317
00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:47,320
comprehensive universities
within the system.

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00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:52,080
That is sort of where, where IU
Bloomington is, is kind of at

319
00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:55,720
the at the helm.
And, and, and I got an

320
00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:58,560
opportunity to work with some of
the folks at IU Bloomington and,

321
00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:02,200
and, and people recognized my
research background.

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00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:04,800
And so I got, I got folded into
the conversations.

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00:20:05,120 --> 00:20:09,160
I was, I, you know, I was able
to help some folks get tenure at

324
00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:13,720
those places up, up, up there.
And then moved on to Portland

325
00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:18,200
State, which was much more of a
research university in the

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00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:22,120
Pacific Northwest.
So a whole different sort of

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00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:28,040
region.
You know, Portland, the politics

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00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:31,320
in Portland are different.
And, and you know, it just

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00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:33,920
turned out not to be the
greatest fit, but I learned a

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00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:38,120
lot in, in, in Oregon.
And because I worked on a number

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00:20:38,120 --> 00:20:43,560
of different statewide
committees and so I worked, I

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00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:49,000
also LED our the Oregon
Association of Colleges for

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00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:53,640
Teacher Ed and got to work
closely with a ACTE.

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00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:57,680
That's where I first landed on
the board of a A/C TE.

335
00:20:58,120 --> 00:21:03,120
And so Oregon really I, I, I
expanded my reach in, in terms

336
00:21:03,120 --> 00:21:07,440
of working as a state leader,
but also working within national

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00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:09,080
organizations.
I started working with the

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00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:11,880
Carnegie Project for, for the
education doctorate while I was

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00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:15,280
there.
And so I was just on any number

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00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:20,400
of committees across the US and,
and in the state of Oregon.

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00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:22,920
And I think, you know, I felt
like I was really having an

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00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:27,960
impact at that level and then
had the opportunity to come to

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00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:32,640
the University of Colorado
Denver, where I haven't been as

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00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:35,360
involved at the national level.
But I've really been working

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00:21:35,360 --> 00:21:38,120
closely with my colleagues
across the university, serving

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00:21:38,120 --> 00:21:40,920
on committees, leading
committees, and they're working

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00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:45,080
with my faculty and my students.
It really has been a good

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00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:46,640
experience and a wonderful
journey.

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00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:54,520
And so thinking about thinking
on across those differences, if

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00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:57,480
you had to speak to sort of the
global roles and

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00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:00,720
responsibilities of a Dean,
what's the crux of it?

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00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:08,280
So you talked about this notion
of state leadership, university

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00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:11,840
and community partnerships.
And then I want to harken back

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00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:14,720
to you now.
You had a research one and your

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00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:17,760
passion was research.
And I think it's, it's striking

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00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:22,560
to hear you talk about research
and then some comprehensive

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00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:27,160
schools that are more community
based, those variations.

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00:22:28,360 --> 00:22:31,000
You know, how, how would you,
what would you say to other

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00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:33,840
Deans who are thinking about the
sort of the what is the

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00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:35,320
question?
Two or three things that

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00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:38,800
irrespective of which role
you're in, what's what's what

362
00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:43,720
does that role entail?
The Dean role, yes, I think

363
00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:47,160
you're right.
You know, the Dean sets the tone

364
00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:48,760
for the school or college,
right?

365
00:22:49,360 --> 00:22:54,720
And as as I have worked
throughout my career to

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00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:57,840
emphasize community, to
emphasize community connections,

367
00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:01,320
but also to emphasize building
and growing a sense of community

368
00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:05,440
within that.
We are team, we work together.

369
00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:07,240
We don't work against each
other, right?

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00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:12,840
And that we embrace all people
regardless of race, gender,

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00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:16,800
sexual orientation of gender
identity, social class,

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00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:19,840
religion.
I've got, for example, a number

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00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:23,840
of faculty who are Jewish.
I have also faculty and students

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00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:26,200
who are Muslim.
And so working with those two

375
00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:29,200
populations in this moment where
there's all this tension, right,

376
00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:32,880
there has been an opportunity
for me to really lead and

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00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:36,920
continue to maintain close ties
to both and to recognize and to

378
00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:40,920
say to all to say to everybody,
I support everyone, right?

379
00:23:41,360 --> 00:23:44,920
And, and I expect everybody here
to support everyone.

380
00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:47,200
So if you're a Jewish faculty
member, I, I expect you to

381
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:49,800
support your Muslim students and
vice versa, right?

382
00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:55,360
That we don't, that we don't
reject people because of of who

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00:23:55,360 --> 00:23:57,800
they are.
And so as a Dean, I have the

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00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:01,640
opportunity to set that as an
expectation, but also to try to

385
00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:07,160
model that.
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386
00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:11,160
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notes.
I said I wasn't involved in

406
00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:37,320
state work here.
Well, I don't know.

407
00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:40,920
I have to think about that
because I, I am the inaugural

408
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:46,360
chair of the Colorado Education
Preparation Advisory Committee,

409
00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:52,920
which was a, it's, it's a group
that was created by statute as a

410
00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:58,920
way for education preparation,
educated preparation programs to

411
00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:04,480
have an opportunity to weigh in
on statewide processes like

412
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:07,360
reauthorization standards
development.

413
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:11,200
There's fun teaching profession.
And so I'm, I've been leading

414
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:15,200
that group for the last three
years and I'm in direct contact

415
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:18,440
with the Colorado Department of
Education around these issues,

416
00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:21,200
around these matters.
How do we make the, the process

417
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:24,040
of authorizing and reauthorizing
teacher teacher education

418
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:29,120
programs a little cleaner, a
little easier, a little more

419
00:26:29,120 --> 00:26:33,800
well defined, right.
And, and those kinds of things

420
00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:35,520
we, we get a chance to talk
about.

421
00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:43,040
I also serve as the Co chair of
the Colorado Deans for Education

422
00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:45,800
group.
And and so in both and that

423
00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:49,440
role, I have an opportunity to
really take a lead on policy

424
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:54,280
advocacy for teacher preparation
programs across the state and to

425
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:57,520
develop relationships with other
Deans and directors or whatever

426
00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:01,520
the title may be at their
institutions across Colorado to,

427
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:04,680
to advocate for educated
preparation.

428
00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:08,880
And so I've really, I think so
the Dean has has an opportunity

429
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:11,080
to continue to lead at the state
level.

430
00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:13,520
And I think that's very
important, particularly at an

431
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:16,600
institution like mine, that I'd
be engaged and highly visible

432
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:20,040
and connected.
We just, we're going to receive

433
00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:25,440
an award this year through
NACTIV, the National Association

434
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:29,000
for Community Colleges of
Teacher Preparation, I think.

435
00:27:29,360 --> 00:27:34,000
And they're recognizing that CU
Denver's School of Education and

436
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:38,720
Human Development is one of the
leading schools in the country

437
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:43,240
that successfully partners with
high schools, community

438
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:47,520
colleges, to really prepare
teachers in this really

439
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:50,920
comprehensive and rich way.
And so they're going to be

440
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:54,120
recognizing the partnership that
we have with the Saint Vrain

441
00:27:54,120 --> 00:27:58,480
School District that has been
that has become very, very, very

442
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:04,680
productive in in so many ways.
And Cindy Gutierrez and Barbara

443
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:07,960
Seidel started that partnership
and I had the opportunity as a

444
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:09,280
Dean.
And this is another important

445
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:13,800
role of a Dean is to recognize
good work, right and say, keep

446
00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:17,200
going, I got you.
I want to support you right to

447
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:20,120
be continued.
So I didn't start that, but

448
00:28:20,360 --> 00:28:23,920
because I came in and said and
recognize that it was a

449
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:27,560
outstanding work, I threw my
support behind it.

450
00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:30,720
And they didn't have to worry
about whether they were going to

451
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:34,760
have a, a new Dean come in and,
and break it up or, or, or stop

452
00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:37,120
it, but that I was going to
support it because I knew it

453
00:28:37,120 --> 00:28:38,400
when I recognized it was good
work.

454
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:42,840
So now I'm getting an award for
simply supporting good work.

455
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:48,520
And, and I think that that is an
really important job of the Dean

456
00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:52,480
is to recognize where good work
is happening and supported at

457
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:56,280
the very highest level.
I'll, I'll be honest, when I got

458
00:28:56,280 --> 00:29:00,880
here, I didn't come in with the
mindset that I was going to

459
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:04,000
change everything.
Part of the reason I came to see

460
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:06,040
you Denver.
And I had an opportunity to be

461
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:09,520
fairly selective about where I
was going to go next after

462
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:11,680
having had the experience in, in
Oregon, right?

463
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:15,160
And I said, I've got to go to a
place where there's alignment

464
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:16,920
between what they want and what
I want.

465
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:19,960
There's got to be some
structures in place already that

466
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:21,560
we can continue to build and
grow on.

467
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:24,120
I don't want to have to build a
ship from from the ground up,

468
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:26,800
which is sort of what we had to
do at IU South Bend.

469
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:32,440
And so I came into an
environment where there was just

470
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:36,320
the need for support for ongoing
initiatives that were already

471
00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:39,960
successful.
And, and this is an example of

472
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:42,320
1.
And then now we're in this place

473
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:45,120
where we're taking a more
critical look, and I'm in my 4th

474
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:47,760
year.
We think, OK, are there things

475
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:50,680
that we do need to take a
critical look at?

476
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:52,760
And how do we do that together
as a community?

477
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:55,480
And the Provost and the
chancellor are also asking us to

478
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:58,400
do that through the process
where we really look at our

479
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:01,280
academic programs to look at the
history of enrollment and look

480
00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:06,320
at admissions and so on to try
to determine how we might

481
00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:09,600
strengthen some areas where we
might be a little weak or might,

482
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:13,520
might sort of, you know, do some
difference, do some things in a

483
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:18,280
different way.
And so, but I appreciate that I

484
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:22,320
didn't have to walk in the door
doing that, that after getting

485
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:26,960
to know people, after, you know,
developing some trust with the

486
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:31,040
faculty and with, with students
and staff, that we then have the

487
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:35,360
opportunity to to look
critically at our environment to

488
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:38,760
say, all right, where do we want
to continue to do what we do?

489
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:41,600
And where do we want to make
some change so that we can be

490
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:46,320
even better?
So the Dean is a state leader.

491
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:48,120
And then I've continued to do
that work.

492
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:51,040
The Dean also, I think should be
a global leader.

493
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:54,120
And I'll talk about that in a
second.

494
00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:56,520
But I want to just revisit a
couple of things I said in the

495
00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:59,960
past.
I think the Dean also has an

496
00:30:59,960 --> 00:31:03,200
opportunity to set the example.
And then I think when there's an

497
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:06,400
opportunity for sort of positive
change to move the place

498
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:07,960
forward, then we can also do
that.

499
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:10,760
And so while we're looking
critically at some of our

500
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:13,040
programs that may not be as
strong as they want them to be,

501
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:17,200
we're also looking at new
opportunities, right, and and

502
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:20,360
new potential partnerships to
grow in other ways.

503
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:26,360
I spent a week in East Africa in
in 2024 with my colleague Dr.

504
00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:31,760
Margarita Bianco, and we went to
Rwanda and Uganda for the sole

505
00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:35,320
purpose of instigating
partnerships with East African

506
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:37,240
universities.
And so we have been in

507
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:41,040
conversation over the last year
with Kepler University about a

508
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:44,040
joint doctoral program for their
faculty.

509
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:48,280
A number of the of their faculty
don't have pH DS or Ed DS, and

510
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:50,960
so they're interested in
partnering with us to do that.

511
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:54,840
And what we're looking for now
are ways to support that either

512
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:56,800
through federal or international
grants.

513
00:31:57,600 --> 00:31:59,640
So.
So the deed also has an

514
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:01,720
opportunity to instigate
partnerships, but to work with

515
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:03,480
faculty to make sure the faculty
are on board.

516
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:06,080
And Doctor Bianca would
represented that and said, yeah,

517
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:08,720
this is something we want to do.
We also need the endorsement of

518
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:12,640
the Dean.
And so just the role is so

519
00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:15,320
varied.
I could talk for days about all

520
00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:19,200
the different things that we do
and how I think gratifying and

521
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:23,160
challenging the job can be.
Right, I definitely understand

522
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:26,520
you on that.
Again, again, I I'm hearing a

523
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:30,920
pattern doctor land community,
community at a local base

524
00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:37,320
community state level and as you
just talked about community also

525
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:42,000
on the international level.
And I absolutely appreciate this

526
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:46,640
idea of alignment.
So you talked about choosing

527
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:51,800
your current place of employment
based on an an alignment of your

528
00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:54,000
values and the values of the
institution.

529
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:58,720
Absolutely.
I, I learned that that is so, so

530
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:01,320
important.
And so any job that you take,

531
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:05,360
you have to make sure that they
want what you want ultimately.

532
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:07,600
Now how you get there, you
figure that out along the way,

533
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:09,720
right?
But there has to be alignment in

534
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:15,320
that sense.
And I also recognize that I'm a

535
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:21,520
certain type of communicator.
I'm more direct and it it would,

536
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:24,760
it would be difficult to be in
an environment where people did

537
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:26,360
not appreciate direct
communication.

538
00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:30,000
I've been in that space before.
And so that was something I also

539
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:33,920
wanted to look at.
And what I realized is that they

540
00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:38,360
had had a Dean here, the late
Doctor Rebecca Cantor, who they

541
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:42,560
revered, was a wonderful leader.
You probably met her.

542
00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:45,920
She was involved in cadre and
AACT and other organizations.

543
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:52,920
And then she passed in 2021.
But Doctor Cantor was a direct

544
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:56,160
communicator and she was an
engaged leader at multiple

545
00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:59,000
levels.
And so that was what they were

546
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:01,800
looking for in an, in a leader.
And so that was a great fit for

547
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:06,400
me as well, right?
That I had been in a place with

548
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:10,000
a, with a, with a long term
leader who didn't communicate

549
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:12,719
directly, didn't say much of
anything, didn't give feedback,

550
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:15,120
didn't give input.
And so I stepped in and there I

551
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:16,920
am being my direct communicate
herself.

552
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:19,199
And that was, it was a conflict
right away.

553
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:22,080
And so I, I was also looking to
make sure that there was

554
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:26,520
alignment there and that I
couldn't be involved in

555
00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:29,400
communication with people about
things that were happening.

556
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:32,400
And I'd say, hey, here's what,
here's what I see.

557
00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:37,840
But I also learned that as a
Dean, you have to empower your

558
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:41,159
faculty, you have to empower
your staff to be able to make

559
00:34:41,159 --> 00:34:47,719
decisions that that they think
are the most productive in terms

560
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:49,440
of the programs that they work
with.

561
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:55,199
And so I can provide input and
feedback, but ultimately it's up

562
00:34:55,199 --> 00:34:57,280
to them to to make those
decisions.

563
00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:00,760
And so we don't need to try to
micromanage what happens, but

564
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:04,600
it's important for us to be able
to offer our insights and to

565
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:10,080
perhaps I can say here's what I
know about what's happening on

566
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:13,280
the East Coast, you know, at
Fordham or wherever.

567
00:35:13,720 --> 00:35:16,360
And we might learn from that as
we think about how we move

568
00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:19,760
forward in these ways and to
offer those examples and to draw

569
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:22,360
in the relationships that I have
with folks like yourself and

570
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:24,920
others.
Like, for example, I'm going to

571
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:29,320
be talking to the a ACTE
president about counseling

572
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:33,480
because our counseling program
is going through transformation.

573
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:40,560
And so the A/C TE president
happens to also be one of the

574
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:45,480
top counseling scholars in the
country and has been a part of

575
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:48,560
and LED counseling programs
across the nation.

576
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:53,880
And so I have the opportunity to
talk to someone at that level

577
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:57,920
about counseling and about where
we're headed and to get her

578
00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:00,760
input and her feedback to
support my faculty as they

579
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:03,440
consider these new opportunities
that are before us.

580
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:08,000
And so I, I appreciate having
the opportunity to, to draw on

581
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:10,480
the long standing relationships
that I've developed over the

582
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:12,480
years to be able to support my,
my community.

583
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:17,320
And that would be Doctor Cheryl
Holger McCoy, who has been a

584
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:20,760
guest on the show.
She's fabulous, love.

585
00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:23,400
Her and most definitely we love
her as well.

586
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:26,480
And we're speaking with Doctor
Marvin Lynn, who is Dean for the

587
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:29,600
School of Education and Human
Development at the Universe in

588
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:35,160
Colorado, Denver.
Doctor Lynn, your doctoral work

589
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:41,480
in race ethnic studies focused
on the lived experiences of

590
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:44,880
educators of color.
So why do you think it is so

591
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:49,400
important for education to
consider race and ethnicity at

592
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:52,720
every level, from policy to
everyday practice?

593
00:36:54,240 --> 00:36:57,480
Well, you know, Jacob, when you
and I got into Graduate School,

594
00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:00,120
I, I may have, I'm trying to
remember when you, when you

595
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:01,760
started.
I think I was maybe a little bit

596
00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:06,720
ahead of you, but I started in
the mid 90s, right?

597
00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:10,760
You were a little bit.
I started in 2000 but OK 2000.

598
00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:12,240
That's what I thought.
I thought I was a little bit

599
00:37:12,240 --> 00:37:13,000
ahead of you.
Yeah.

600
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:17,120
And I went to, I got my masters
before that.

601
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:20,680
I got my masters in from, you
know, 93 to 95.

602
00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:29,000
I was at teacher's College in
Columbia and there was just,

603
00:37:29,240 --> 00:37:33,040
there was very little
information out there about why

604
00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:39,320
our kids struggle.
What, what I was exposed to was

605
00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:43,680
folks, and I mentioned the late
John Abu, who is a great

606
00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:47,960
scholar, but I disagreed with
with Doctor Abu because of his

607
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:55,600
argument was that black kids
didn't learn in school because

608
00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:58,720
their culture was not aligned
with school, right.

609
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:03,080
And it was black culture that
was sort of dragging us down.

610
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:07,440
And there was a number of
different studies like that.

611
00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:14,160
I, I remember other studies that
that emphasized the, the

612
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:17,480
dysfunction of our culture as
black people as really being the

613
00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:19,920
primary reason for why we did
not succeed.

614
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:25,040
And so I'd gone through teachers
college and and and struggle

615
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:27,080
with that.
Also got introduced, though, to

616
00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:31,920
people like Lisa Delpit, Gloria
Ladson Billings who were

617
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:36,600
telling, I think important
stories about Jackie Jordan

618
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:40,720
Irvine is another about I can I
could go on and on.

619
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:44,640
That's just as I was thinking
I'm like Joyce King, but these

620
00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:47,040
these folks were talking about
the role of black educators,

621
00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:50,480
right, and how important black
educators were.

622
00:38:50,720 --> 00:38:54,640
And so that story was was was
evolving in the 90s.

623
00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:59,800
But then there was this whole
history of research that relied

624
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:04,760
on our deficiencies as a way to
explain why we were not

625
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:09,000
successful.
Critical race theory wasn't even

626
00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:12,200
a thing yet, Right?
I think critical race theory

627
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:17,720
was, was, as was coined as a
term, what an 89 or and in in

628
00:39:17,720 --> 00:39:21,120
the first big compendium around,
critical race theory didn't come

629
00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:24,720
out until the mid 90s.
Although if you were like Daniel

630
00:39:24,720 --> 00:39:28,480
Selorsenho, you were in the law
libraries reading those, those

631
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:32,040
law reviews in the early 90s,
which is what people like Daniel

632
00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:34,720
Selorsenho and Gloria Lads and
Billings and Bill Tate and Larry

633
00:39:34,720 --> 00:39:38,120
Parker were doing.
And then as I went to UCLAI, got

634
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:41,960
exposed to that.
And I got access to the UCLA law

635
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:44,280
library to be able to read some
of these studies as they were

636
00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:48,040
emerging in the in the late 90s.
But also to get familiar with

637
00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:51,280
this, this this concept of
critical race theory as, as a

638
00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:55,320
way to really understand the
experiences of racially

639
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:57,360
minoritized folks like black
folks, right?

640
00:39:57,600 --> 00:39:59,680
And to understand the role that
race.

641
00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:06,960
Play in shaping our experiences
in in, in the law, but also in

642
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:10,480
schools.
And so at UCLA, I was surrounded

643
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:14,600
by this community of scholars.
Tara Yosa was one of them, who

644
00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:17,280
were also interested in that
from different perspectives and

645
00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:20,800
different vantage points.
And so we began to actively

646
00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:27,520
explore how race functioned in
society, but how it also shaped

647
00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:31,840
outcomes at every level, right.
We could talk about hospitals,

648
00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:37,920
we could talk about the law, we
could talk about any housing,

649
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:42,320
right, income disparities.
And of course, our focus was on

650
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:43,640
schools.
And I was interested in the

651
00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:45,280
working lives of black male
teachers.

652
00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:49,960
And so critical race theory and,
and race and ethnic studies

653
00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:53,080
could have been also called
critical race theory and

654
00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:54,840
education.
I mean, it was the same thing,

655
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:59,080
but we were all focused on CRT
as a way to really understand

656
00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:01,320
the, the dynamic of schools and
what was happening.

657
00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:04,760
And particularly how that was
shaping and influencing outcomes

658
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:07,960
for our, for our students to
move away from the deficit

659
00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:11,200
framework.
That said that, that, that we

660
00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:13,640
weren't successful because of,
because of our skin color,

661
00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:16,760
because of our family issues.
I was an example of a kid who

662
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:21,120
came out of a struggling
household with a, with a stepdad

663
00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:24,160
that wasn't very stable.
My mom didn't have an education

664
00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:27,400
yet I, I succeeded, right?
And so according to some of

665
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:32,320
those theories, I should have
never been successful, but at

666
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:34,680
the wheel of the drive to do so.
And I, and I would argue, you

667
00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:38,400
know, the intelligence and
there's so many kids like me who

668
00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:42,640
who grew up and go up in
impoverished conditions, who

669
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:46,720
struggle in different ways
economically, but yet persist.

670
00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:51,040
And so a lot of the research
didn't tell that story because

671
00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:52,520
we get frayed in a particular
way.

672
00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:57,320
But what CRT does is it helps us
to understand why so many

673
00:41:57,320 --> 00:42:01,000
continue to, to fail, to falter
in this, in a system that

674
00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:05,640
doesn't support their success.
And we look at specific kinds of

675
00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:08,040
processes.
I'm, I'm interested in classroom

676
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:10,600
pedagogy and what happens in the
classroom and how teachers,

677
00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:14,920
through their interactions with
students on a day-to-day basis,

678
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:21,040
can actually lead students
toward abject failure in ways

679
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:24,280
that perhaps they don't intend.
But that, you know, they're

680
00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:27,320
dismissive of students and their
identity and their culture.

681
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:32,760
They leave out entire swaths of
information in terms of their

682
00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:35,640
curriculum, right?
And they ignore the history and

683
00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:37,880
culture of Black and Brown
communities and so on.

684
00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:45,800
And and and just also frame
Black males as dangerous.

685
00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:48,760
I saw that with my own eyes when
I was teaching.

686
00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:50,680
That was one of the most
frustrating things about being a

687
00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:53,840
teacher is that to be a teacher
who actually cared about

688
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:57,680
students and wanted to see all
of my students succeed, but

689
00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:00,960
especially my black and brown
students and to and to have them

690
00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:02,200
student.
Those students go to another

691
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:04,920
classroom that next year with a
teacher who did not give a damn

692
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:10,040
about them and who, in fact,
again, I won't say it was

693
00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:12,920
intentional, but in many ways
when it was going to ensure

694
00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:15,040
their failure.
And so I, I became very

695
00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:20,360
frustrated by that as a teacher.
And so critical race theory is

696
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:24,480
really giving me a lens and I
and through which to better

697
00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:30,520
understand those dynamics, but
also to think about how in fact,

698
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:36,240
do we propel the success of
Black and brown children in the

699
00:43:36,240 --> 00:43:40,560
classroom in today's classroom.
And so I coined a term, critical

700
00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:45,000
race pedagogy, with the support
of folks like Daniel Solorcino

701
00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:48,800
and, and in conversation with my
colleagues like Tara Yoso around

702
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:53,320
like, how do we take this theory
and make it real in the lives of

703
00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:58,480
teachers and students?
And, and how do we think about

704
00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:02,360
this as as liberatory as
something that ultimately is

705
00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:05,760
going to propel the success of
students who would otherwise be

706
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:10,360
ignored and shut out?
And so ultimately, I believe

707
00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:17,640
race and ethnic studies at UCLA
gave me a language voice for not

708
00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:22,920
just critiquing racism, but also
thinking about how we build a

709
00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:28,440
kind of liberatory framework out
of these conditions to really

710
00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:33,480
advance our students and our
teachers in ways that I think

711
00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:37,080
are important for us to continue
to do in this current moment.

712
00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:42,760
And in a previous interview on
the Early Link podcast, you

713
00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:45,200
described the US as a racially
illiterate.

714
00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:51,440
So what responsibility do you
think schools of education have

715
00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:53,840
been helping future educators
and leaders?

716
00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:58,000
And, and in your case, you also
have school counselors and and

717
00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:03,040
folks who are preparing to be
psychologists so on and so forth

718
00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:06,600
in developing languages for
understanding the needs to

719
00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:08,600
engage in conversations about
race.

720
00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:12,080
Because I think as you mentioned
earlier in that example from

721
00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:15,680
your P12 school, students
leaving one classroom and going

722
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:20,000
to another classroom where it's
likely perceived but probably

723
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:24,800
true that teachers did not love
a care for students, certain

724
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:28,360
students in the same way at the
same level and perhaps didn't

725
00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:33,640
even know how to.
Right, didn't know how to and I

726
00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:36,160
think about Rachel literally, I
think about the amazing work of

727
00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:40,720
of Yolanda Seeley Ruiz at at
Teachers College.

728
00:45:40,720 --> 00:45:43,200
That's, that's her work.
Yeah.

729
00:45:43,240 --> 00:45:46,960
I, you know, listen, I and this
is, this is what I was, what I

730
00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:50,760
was saying earlier.
We didn't, we didn't have a

731
00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:55,080
discourse in the 90s, but really
being able to frame and talk

732
00:45:55,080 --> 00:45:59,720
about race.
I remember being in a classroom

733
00:45:59,720 --> 00:46:03,120
of a very famous critical
pedagogist at UCLA.

734
00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:07,280
And they had written a book
about their own experience of

735
00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:09,800
coming into understanding about
critical pedagogy.

736
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:15,360
And they had been a teacher and
they were sharing an experience

737
00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:18,400
they had as a classroom teacher.
This great critical pedagogue

738
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:23,120
was of working with a young
black male who was failing.

739
00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:28,840
And the way that this person who
was a neo Marxist, who

740
00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:32,760
understood the relationship
between capital and, and the

741
00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:37,040
human degradation and all of
these things, they relied on

742
00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:40,680
John and Abu as an explanation
for why this young black male

743
00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:44,320
was not succeeding.
And I said, wait a minute, if

744
00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:49,640
you're a Marxist, don't you
understand slavery and, and the

745
00:46:49,720 --> 00:46:53,000
economic processes involved in
that and how black people's

746
00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:56,680
labor was exploited and how that
led to these ghettos?

747
00:46:56,680 --> 00:47:00,480
And you know, right, I, I was
looking for this really complex

748
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:03,480
analysis and understanding of of
our condition from the

749
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:05,560
standpoint of a of a Marxist or
neo Marxist.

750
00:47:05,560 --> 00:47:10,120
And, and it was not there in
part because there just wasn't a

751
00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:14,560
language or a discourse to help
people understand it.

752
00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:17,400
Now the same person is still
active, right.

753
00:47:17,640 --> 00:47:20,400
And if you if ask them that same
question today, they have a much

754
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:24,320
more nuanced, dynamic
understanding of that situation

755
00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:28,280
that they were experiencing way
back then because of the work

756
00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:31,920
that that Kimberly Crenshaw and
and Danny Suerson or Larry

757
00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:35,560
Parker Glory likes abilities
myself and others have done to

758
00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:39,440
help people develop a discourse
for understanding the impact of

759
00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:42,720
race on, on, on peoples of
color.

760
00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:45,160
And I'm and I include indigenous
people in that, right?

761
00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:49,520
If you don't understand how race
has shaped outcomes in the

762
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:53,320
broader society, you are
illiterate, right?

763
00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:56,680
And so when you look at what is
happening to black and brown

764
00:47:56,680 --> 00:47:59,480
people in school settings, you
don't understand.

765
00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:03,040
And you, you, you're going to
blame those kids and their Mamas

766
00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:05,080
and their daddies and their
grandparents, right?

767
00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:08,680
And that's what I encountered
with, with teachers and training

768
00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:15,000
is my parents valued education.
And that's why I'm here today,

769
00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:17,880
right?
And you look, you look out and

770
00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:20,960
you see a sea of whiteness in
these elite universities.

771
00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:23,880
And you think that that's
because you worked hard and

772
00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:26,600
other people didn't.
That makes you illiterate,

773
00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:30,200
right?
You don't understand the social,

774
00:48:30,200 --> 00:48:33,160
political, the economic
processes that have shaped and

775
00:48:33,160 --> 00:48:38,840
influenced the outcomes that you
see before you, how communities

776
00:48:38,840 --> 00:48:42,840
of color have been positioned,
unfortunately, away from higher

777
00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:46,200
education and how and how white,
particularly middle class

778
00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:49,440
communities up in the up in the
position toward higher

779
00:48:49,440 --> 00:48:53,120
education.
And so, and if we don't give

780
00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:56,160
teachers and and counselors and
principals and school

781
00:48:56,160 --> 00:49:00,040
psychologist a language to
really be able to understand

782
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:03,520
what has happened to our
communities, they go into those

783
00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:07,160
communities and they do more
harm, unfortunately, because

784
00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:09,400
they don't understand the
community, they don't understand

785
00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:11,560
the people, they don't
understand the students.

786
00:49:11,800 --> 00:49:14,320
And they, they get very
frustrated and they get very

787
00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:19,120
upset and they blame people for
their own situations without

788
00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:21,680
understanding how all of this
stuff is come to be.

789
00:49:21,800 --> 00:49:25,840
So we, we, we have an obligation
to give them a language to be

790
00:49:25,840 --> 00:49:28,600
able to understand the situation
so that they can be of support

791
00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:33,000
and they can work hand in hand
with folks to, to overcome.

792
00:49:33,160 --> 00:49:38,160
My teachers got it right.
They never blamed me for not

793
00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:41,640
having, you know, the best shoes
or the best clothes.

794
00:49:41,640 --> 00:49:46,600
They never blamed me for, for
not living in, in the, in, in

795
00:49:46,600 --> 00:49:50,000
the ideal circumstances, right?
They understood that if they

796
00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:54,200
were going to help me overcome
some of those challenges that

797
00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:57,600
they had to support me, right?
They had to, they had to sort of

798
00:49:57,600 --> 00:50:01,600
walk hand in hand with me and
partner with me and my mom to

799
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:03,840
ensure my success.
And that's what we need.

800
00:50:04,520 --> 00:50:09,120
But but they but you cannot
develop that understanding of

801
00:50:09,120 --> 00:50:12,600
how to work with particularly
poor and working class Black and

802
00:50:12,600 --> 00:50:15,400
Brown and Indigenous students if
you don't understand their

803
00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:17,560
history and then you don't
understand who they are and if

804
00:50:17,560 --> 00:50:22,640
you can't speak in in in
racially literate ways about

805
00:50:22,640 --> 00:50:26,720
those experiences.
Yeah, definitely agree with you.

806
00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:31,840
And then I definitely agree with
you and this notion of blaming

807
00:50:31,840 --> 00:50:37,680
the victim when we often don't
take a critical look at not only

808
00:50:37,680 --> 00:50:41,200
the culture and lived
experiences, but the systems

809
00:50:41,200 --> 00:50:46,640
that shape those experiences.
And because you aren't affected

810
00:50:46,640 --> 00:50:50,000
by the systems in the same way,
because most times they're

811
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:55,560
written, they are designed to
place you, particularly if

812
00:50:55,560 --> 00:51:00,520
you're in a particular economic
environment, irrespective of

813
00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:02,760
race.
I would say sometimes you're

814
00:51:02,760 --> 00:51:06,880
privileged in ways that those
who have fewer resources are,

815
00:51:06,960 --> 00:51:11,080
are not.
And, and it's, it's often

816
00:51:11,080 --> 00:51:15,240
something that folks take for
granted and assume that

817
00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:19,880
particularly in era we talk
about meritocracy, is that you

818
00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:22,560
have, because you're in this
space, you have the same

819
00:51:22,560 --> 00:51:26,800
opportunities when the reality
is you don't have the same level

820
00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:30,640
of access.
So you're in the school, but you

821
00:51:30,640 --> 00:51:32,880
don't have access to the same
resources?

822
00:51:33,960 --> 00:51:36,240
Absolutely.
And research shows that.

823
00:51:36,240 --> 00:51:40,360
I mean, if you study the
particularly in higher education

824
00:51:40,360 --> 00:51:42,920
at the doctoral level, right,
when you can look at the

825
00:51:43,000 --> 00:51:47,680
outcomes of black doctoral
students versus the outcomes of

826
00:51:47,760 --> 00:51:52,040
of white doctoral students.
And what the research shows is

827
00:51:52,040 --> 00:51:55,720
and is a number of people doing
research on this now is that

828
00:51:55,720 --> 00:51:59,760
white doctoral students, when
they graduate, have had access

829
00:51:59,760 --> 00:52:03,640
to writing journal articles,
presenting at major research

830
00:52:03,640 --> 00:52:06,240
conferences alongside their
mentors, right?

831
00:52:07,120 --> 00:52:09,520
We haven't, a lot of times
haven't had that.

832
00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:15,160
Now, I did, fortunately, because
of because of who I was mentored

833
00:52:15,160 --> 00:52:17,120
by.
But I know a lot of black

834
00:52:17,240 --> 00:52:19,840
students that did not have that
exposure, that experience.

835
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:22,040
We just don't get the same level
of support.

836
00:52:22,800 --> 00:52:26,320
And again, white students in
those spaces don't always

837
00:52:26,320 --> 00:52:28,320
recognize the privileges that
they have.

838
00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:31,600
And they think it's because
they're smarter and they work

839
00:52:31,600 --> 00:52:35,120
harder than everybody else and
don't recognize that that it's

840
00:52:35,640 --> 00:52:38,240
their that their black
counterparts are just as smart

841
00:52:38,240 --> 00:52:40,520
and work just as hard as they
do, but just don't have access

842
00:52:40,520 --> 00:52:44,080
to the same privileges.
And so that is highly prevalent

843
00:52:44,400 --> 00:52:46,120
throughout the education system,
right?

844
00:52:46,120 --> 00:52:49,520
So even though we're there, we
are not being treated in the

845
00:52:49,520 --> 00:52:53,120
same way and we're not getting
the same access to the

846
00:52:53,120 --> 00:52:56,720
mentorship, to the kind of
support that's other students to

847
00:52:56,720 --> 00:52:58,240
get.
It also happens with faculty,

848
00:52:58,240 --> 00:52:59,960
right?
We, you and I could speak to the

849
00:52:59,960 --> 00:53:05,160
experience of, of how some
faculty come into these

850
00:53:05,160 --> 00:53:07,880
institutions with all the
support in the world to be

851
00:53:07,880 --> 00:53:11,120
successful, to get tenure.
And oftentimes it's an uphill

852
00:53:11,120 --> 00:53:16,040
battle for us.
And so we experience these

853
00:53:16,040 --> 00:53:18,520
disparities at every level,
right?

854
00:53:18,520 --> 00:53:21,240
And it, it doesn't start and end
with what happens in elementary

855
00:53:21,240 --> 00:53:22,760
school.
It continues, unfortunately.

856
00:53:23,200 --> 00:53:27,320
And those of us who are able to
persist do so with the support

857
00:53:27,600 --> 00:53:30,440
of a lot of others.
But also I believe we have to

858
00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:35,440
have a kind of stick to
itiveness or something that that

859
00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:38,880
that propels us to go forward
even when we don't feel

860
00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:42,920
supported, even when we don't
feel like others want us to be

861
00:53:42,920 --> 00:53:45,160
successful.
We have we have to have an inner

862
00:53:45,160 --> 00:53:49,880
drive that propels us to be
successful Despite that.

863
00:53:50,760 --> 00:53:54,480
So adjacent to this idea of
racial literacy, I'm going to

864
00:53:55,000 --> 00:53:58,680
talk about equity a bit and I
want to try a case study.

865
00:54:00,440 --> 00:54:04,760
So you and I understanding from
the role of Deans, when you go

866
00:54:04,760 --> 00:54:10,040
into meetings, almost everybody
will coalesce around fairness.

867
00:54:11,400 --> 00:54:15,000
Yes, let's make things fair.
And so taking away the word

868
00:54:15,000 --> 00:54:19,400
equity.
However, I have come to notice

869
00:54:19,400 --> 00:54:25,160
that when folks feel as though
fairness means that they

870
00:54:25,160 --> 00:54:29,800
perceive that certain resources
or privileges have to be

871
00:54:29,800 --> 00:54:33,400
distributed and they're going to
receive less than perhaps what

872
00:54:33,400 --> 00:54:36,680
they're used to, fairness
becomes a problem.

873
00:54:37,040 --> 00:54:40,240
Oh yeah.
What are your thoughts on that

874
00:54:40,240 --> 00:54:45,880
and how might as a Dean address
and we can think together on

875
00:54:45,880 --> 00:54:48,680
this one, how might Deans
address that phenomena?

876
00:54:49,960 --> 00:54:53,080
You know, it's a really
challenging issue, particularly

877
00:54:53,080 --> 00:54:57,160
now, right?
You know, we all work in

878
00:54:57,160 --> 00:55:00,120
environments where at least I
work in an environment where I

879
00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:02,120
won't say we all almost speak
for myself.

880
00:55:02,960 --> 00:55:09,920
I work in an environment where I
do have projects and resources

881
00:55:10,560 --> 00:55:14,240
that are designed to support
those who need it the most,

882
00:55:14,680 --> 00:55:18,000
right?
And all of those things have

883
00:55:18,000 --> 00:55:20,760
come under great scrutiny,
right?

884
00:55:20,760 --> 00:55:25,320
Because we are, we are in an
environment now where that's

885
00:55:25,320 --> 00:55:28,120
considered discrimination.
When you say I want to have a

886
00:55:28,120 --> 00:55:31,640
scholarship for Black males or
for Latino females, right, To

887
00:55:31,640 --> 00:55:35,080
support them because I know that
those populations struggle the

888
00:55:35,080 --> 00:55:38,280
most with kept getting access,
first of all to higher

889
00:55:38,280 --> 00:55:42,000
education, but also with, with
minor success within the walls

890
00:55:42,000 --> 00:55:44,760
of, of academia.
And so we have to provide

891
00:55:44,760 --> 00:55:47,720
additional supports to ensure
that those folks can be

892
00:55:47,720 --> 00:55:49,960
successful and all that's come
under great scrutiny.

893
00:55:49,960 --> 00:55:55,800
So what we've had to do is, and
unfortunately, This is why I

894
00:55:55,800 --> 00:55:58,720
like being at CU Denver, right?
I, I, I haven't been, I haven't

895
00:55:58,720 --> 00:56:04,280
been asked to no longer do that,
but I have been asked to ensure

896
00:56:04,600 --> 00:56:08,240
that all of these opportunities
that are set aside or whatever

897
00:56:08,240 --> 00:56:11,600
they might be scholarships that
they are, are available to

898
00:56:11,760 --> 00:56:15,320
everyone.
And that, that, that no one is

899
00:56:15,320 --> 00:56:19,360
limited from accessing
scholarships and other things

900
00:56:19,360 --> 00:56:24,520
that we have available because
of race or gender or identity,

901
00:56:24,520 --> 00:56:26,840
right?
And so we don't frame them in

902
00:56:26,840 --> 00:56:31,520
those ways.
And so that that's a real issue

903
00:56:31,520 --> 00:56:34,600
when it comes to trying to think
about, well, how do we support

904
00:56:34,680 --> 00:56:39,440
those who are the least served.
And you're right in academia,

905
00:56:39,960 --> 00:56:45,000
those some, a lot of times those
who are the most privileged want

906
00:56:45,000 --> 00:56:49,920
access to all of the resources
and we'll very quickly gobble

907
00:56:49,920 --> 00:56:53,520
those things up.
And in some ways that is how

908
00:56:53,520 --> 00:56:57,200
they have obtained success is by
having access to the most

909
00:56:57,200 --> 00:57:00,840
resources and not really
worrying about those who don't.

910
00:57:01,160 --> 00:57:04,120
And so Dean's have an
opportunity to say, OK, let's,

911
00:57:04,120 --> 00:57:07,800
let's if we're going to look at
equity, equity really is about

912
00:57:08,200 --> 00:57:10,800
giving people what they need to
be successful.

913
00:57:11,240 --> 00:57:14,120
And it doesn't have to be
aligned to race or ethnicity or

914
00:57:14,120 --> 00:57:17,520
gender or any of those
controversial categories now.

915
00:57:18,400 --> 00:57:21,120
But if you just look across your
system and say, well, where's

916
00:57:21,120 --> 00:57:24,560
the greatest need?
And how can I be of, of support

917
00:57:24,560 --> 00:57:26,800
to those who really need, we
need.

918
00:57:26,800 --> 00:57:32,920
And we're, so we're able to
still do that without specifying

919
00:57:33,120 --> 00:57:37,160
that these things are about
supporting particular races or,

920
00:57:37,160 --> 00:57:40,560
or whatever.
And so I, I think that's

921
00:57:40,560 --> 00:57:43,720
continues to be important.
And I think it is important for

922
00:57:43,720 --> 00:57:48,920
us to understand and to help
other people understand why we

923
00:57:48,920 --> 00:57:53,160
have to lift each other up and
support each other and why those

924
00:57:53,160 --> 00:57:57,320
of us with with more resources
have to support those without.

925
00:57:58,720 --> 00:58:01,200
And we have to bring each other
along in different ways.

926
00:58:02,520 --> 00:58:05,240
So, Marvin, I'm going to turn
the conversation a bit more on a

927
00:58:05,240 --> 00:58:08,720
personal level and something
that just warms my heart.

928
00:58:09,160 --> 00:58:12,680
Yes, of course, I enjoy all the
intellectual endeavors and

929
00:58:12,680 --> 00:58:17,000
pursuits.
But surprisingly, we were at a

930
00:58:17,000 --> 00:58:23,800
conference, we were in Savannah,
and I heard you sing at an event

931
00:58:24,320 --> 00:58:28,960
and it blew my mind.
So for those who don't know,

932
00:58:29,400 --> 00:58:32,800
Doctor Marvin Lynn is an
accomplished opera and gospel

933
00:58:32,800 --> 00:58:36,440
singer.
So what are your perspectives on

934
00:58:36,440 --> 00:58:42,280
how being an artist, a creator
in this in this regard shape the

935
00:58:42,280 --> 00:58:48,440
way you listen, lead or teach?
Thank you for that question.

936
00:58:48,440 --> 00:58:52,160
It's great.
You know, for a long time the 2

937
00:58:52,160 --> 00:58:54,320
worlds were very separate.
I would like when I was a

938
00:58:54,320 --> 00:58:56,640
professor at the University of
Maryland way back in the day

939
00:58:56,640 --> 00:58:59,360
with with Doctor Cheryl Hogan
McCoy and she was a counselor

940
00:58:59,360 --> 00:59:03,440
educator there at the time.
I would go on gigs and I would

941
00:59:03,640 --> 00:59:08,320
do opera gigs or club gigs on
the weekend and come back to my

942
00:59:08,320 --> 00:59:10,680
academic job.
And the two just did not mix.

943
00:59:11,480 --> 00:59:13,960
I did have the opportunity to
take voice lessons with Carmen

944
00:59:13,960 --> 00:59:16,400
Belthrop at the University of
Maryland.

945
00:59:16,400 --> 00:59:20,480
Carmen Belthrop was a was a
really well known operatic

946
00:59:20,480 --> 00:59:24,480
artist, black woman.
She starred in Tremonicia.

947
00:59:24,480 --> 00:59:27,880
The and there's AI think it was
the first performance, I think

948
00:59:27,880 --> 00:59:34,400
it was at the Met.
And she also has a recording of

949
00:59:34,400 --> 00:59:37,640
cast recording of Tremonicia,
really legendary artist had a

950
00:59:37,640 --> 00:59:38,800
chance to take voice lessons
with her.

951
00:59:38,800 --> 00:59:41,520
So I, I, you know, I was doing
my music thing and my and my

952
00:59:41,520 --> 00:59:45,000
scholarly thing, but kind of
keeping those worlds separate.

953
00:59:45,160 --> 00:59:50,960
What I realized as a leader,
though, is music is so

954
00:59:50,960 --> 00:59:53,040
important.
It, it, it brings people

955
00:59:53,040 --> 00:59:57,920
together in ways that it's just
hard to do right.

956
00:59:58,600 --> 01:00:02,800
People can also hear social
criticism.

957
01:00:03,520 --> 01:00:06,440
And other types of things in
that are embedded within music

958
01:00:06,440 --> 01:00:08,560
that may be hard to hear in
other ways.

959
01:00:09,480 --> 01:00:13,280
And so it can be a way to to
speak to sort of difficult and

960
01:00:13,280 --> 01:00:15,000
challenging issues and
circumstances.

961
01:00:15,840 --> 01:00:22,640
But art is is, is the glue.
And so I, I no longer keep to

962
01:00:22,640 --> 01:00:24,320
keep that way.
I like this.

963
01:00:24,480 --> 01:00:28,920
We just had a we, we every year
we do a holiday gathering in my

964
01:00:28,920 --> 01:00:32,680
school and we try to do that in
a way that respects all

965
01:00:32,680 --> 01:00:34,040
religions and cultures.
But.

966
01:00:35,200 --> 01:00:38,960
And so this year they wanted to
do karaoke.

967
01:00:39,040 --> 01:00:43,160
And I said, OK, yeah, no.
And I and they said, you know,

968
01:00:44,080 --> 01:00:46,080
Dean Lynn, will you sing?
It might be.

969
01:00:46,160 --> 01:00:48,080
My first instinct was, no, I
don't want to make.

970
01:00:48,440 --> 01:00:51,720
And I decided, yeah, I will.
And I had a chance to kind of

971
01:00:51,720 --> 01:00:58,600
cap off that whole celebration
with what I think is a more it's

972
01:00:58,640 --> 01:01:02,160
it's a, it's a less specific
sort of version of the Christmas

973
01:01:02,160 --> 01:01:04,360
song because I don't say the
word Christmas.

974
01:01:04,600 --> 01:01:09,040
I use the word holiday in it.
But people appreciate that so

975
01:01:09,040 --> 01:01:13,600
much to be able to experience,
you know, my artistry as a

976
01:01:13,600 --> 01:01:15,760
leader.
And, and I wasn't forcing that.

977
01:01:15,760 --> 01:01:18,640
They asked me and I said, OK,
you know, and so I want to be

978
01:01:18,640 --> 01:01:21,440
clear that I'm not forcing this
on anybody, but that if people

979
01:01:21,440 --> 01:01:26,440
want to hear, you know, me
saying I, I try to createspace

980
01:01:26,440 --> 01:01:31,360
for that now and to, and to have
that being part of the community

981
01:01:31,360 --> 01:01:35,080
building work that we're trying
to do in the school, because I

982
01:01:35,080 --> 01:01:38,000
think that's important.
And, and art brings people

983
01:01:38,000 --> 01:01:42,240
together, like I said, in ways
that are you just, it's just

984
01:01:42,240 --> 01:01:44,800
amazing how people come together
around, around art.

985
01:01:45,560 --> 01:01:49,560
And so I, I, I guess I'm being
an opportunist really as a

986
01:01:49,560 --> 01:01:54,240
leader to say any tool that I
can grab onto to build

987
01:01:54,240 --> 01:01:57,160
community, even if it, that
means me performing and singing,

988
01:01:57,160 --> 01:02:03,240
let's do it, I'm happy to do it.
I, I think it also demonstrates

989
01:02:03,240 --> 01:02:09,040
to younger faculty, staff as
well as students that we can do

990
01:02:09,040 --> 01:02:13,080
what we do professionally, but
we have to always feed the thing

991
01:02:13,080 --> 01:02:16,280
that we love because that thing
feeds us, right?

992
01:02:17,480 --> 01:02:20,640
I would not be as healthy as I
am today.

993
01:02:21,000 --> 01:02:26,000
It were not for music, right?
And so I'm, I am intentional

994
01:02:26,000 --> 01:02:30,160
about being involved in music in
some way all the time.

995
01:02:30,160 --> 01:02:34,440
And it's necessary for me to be
able to do that, to be the, the

996
01:02:34,440 --> 01:02:38,960
person that I am and to be open
about that, but to also show

997
01:02:38,960 --> 01:02:41,360
people that, you know, we love
our jobs, we love where we work,

998
01:02:41,600 --> 01:02:44,000
but we have to have other things
that feed our souls.

999
01:02:44,000 --> 01:02:47,800
And then for me, music is that.
And so I also, I think

1000
01:02:47,800 --> 01:02:50,400
demonstrating that we need to
have that balance in our lives,

1001
01:02:50,400 --> 01:02:52,280
right?
The things that we love, that we

1002
01:02:52,280 --> 01:02:56,680
enjoy, that, that bring us joy
are important.

1003
01:02:56,680 --> 01:02:58,320
And then if I have the
opportunity to bring joy to

1004
01:02:58,320 --> 01:03:01,840
other people, even in the school
of education, human development

1005
01:03:01,840 --> 01:03:03,680
through my music, then then by
all means.

1006
01:03:03,680 --> 01:03:06,360
And, and that, that's a, that's
a big change for me.

1007
01:03:06,360 --> 01:03:08,960
I mean, 10 years ago, I would
not have said that.

1008
01:03:09,760 --> 01:03:12,920
And I, and I hope that that's as
a result of, you know, growing

1009
01:03:12,920 --> 01:03:15,120
and, and maturing and
understanding that really

1010
01:03:15,120 --> 01:03:18,800
everything is connected and,
and, and that, that is that if

1011
01:03:18,800 --> 01:03:22,920
we try to force these unnatural,
the separations, it just becomes

1012
01:03:23,040 --> 01:03:26,280
kind of difficult to do.
And so you that, that we are

1013
01:03:26,280 --> 01:03:29,200
these complex individuals.
You know, I, I talk a lot at

1014
01:03:29,200 --> 01:03:33,000
work about my, my sons, my kids,
my, my spouse, you know, and,

1015
01:03:33,000 --> 01:03:34,760
and the things that we can deal
with.

1016
01:03:35,880 --> 01:03:40,800
And so people know me as a
person, as a human being and not

1017
01:03:40,800 --> 01:03:43,000
just as a leader.
And I think that's important.

1018
01:03:43,000 --> 01:03:46,440
And music, I think helps people
to to better access the more

1019
01:03:46,440 --> 01:03:50,280
human side.
I couldn't agree more.

1020
01:03:51,440 --> 01:03:57,760
And so Doctor Lynn, what would
you say is next on the horizon

1021
01:03:58,200 --> 01:04:01,640
for all the great work that
you're doing at the University

1022
01:04:01,640 --> 01:04:06,000
of Colorado Denver?
And how might members of the Add

1023
01:04:06,000 --> 01:04:10,560
Up Accelerated Excellence
community engage with that work?

1024
01:04:10,960 --> 01:04:14,320
Or if you would like, you can
talk about where you're going to

1025
01:04:14,320 --> 01:04:17,800
be performing or new research is
coming out of where you're going

1026
01:04:17,800 --> 01:04:20,760
to be speaking.
So either with your university

1027
01:04:20,760 --> 01:04:25,480
work or your individual
professional or personal work,

1028
01:04:25,680 --> 01:04:30,800
how might folks engage?
So, yeah, the I I have a web

1029
01:04:31,040 --> 01:04:33,440
page at the University of
Colorado Denver.

1030
01:04:33,960 --> 01:04:36,640
If you go to the School of
Education, human Development and

1031
01:04:37,040 --> 01:04:41,240
go to the Dean's page, you can
see my bio and information.

1032
01:04:41,240 --> 01:04:44,520
You can, there's a that you can
actually Click to all of my

1033
01:04:44,520 --> 01:04:47,320
publications there.
And there's and also talks about

1034
01:04:47,320 --> 01:04:51,160
some of the musical stuff that
I've done and continue to do.

1035
01:04:51,920 --> 01:04:53,760
And then you can learn all about
the School of Education and

1036
01:04:53,760 --> 01:04:58,840
Development there that
ucdenver.edu, and then go to the

1037
01:04:58,840 --> 01:05:00,680
School of Education and Human
development there.

1038
01:05:01,160 --> 01:05:04,960
You know, my goal is to continue
doing this good work here.

1039
01:05:05,440 --> 01:05:09,120
We have the opportunity to
continue to grow our influence,

1040
01:05:09,120 --> 01:05:14,520
our impact, while also refining
some of the work that we've been

1041
01:05:14,520 --> 01:05:17,240
doing to make sure that we're
doing it in the most efficient

1042
01:05:17,240 --> 01:05:20,400
way possible and that we're
reaching as many audience as we

1043
01:05:20,400 --> 01:05:24,520
possibly can.
So I see a kind of growth of our

1044
01:05:24,520 --> 01:05:28,360
platform, but I see us also
doing the work internally to

1045
01:05:28,360 --> 01:05:32,800
strengthen what we've been doing
and to do it at an even better

1046
01:05:32,800 --> 01:05:34,960
level.
So that, that's where I see

1047
01:05:34,960 --> 01:05:39,160
myself, you know, in, in the
future, I, I hope to continue to

1048
01:05:39,160 --> 01:05:43,840
work in leadership, you know, at
some point maybe take on larger

1049
01:05:43,840 --> 01:05:47,920
roles, but that's certainly not
in the cards at this moment.

1050
01:05:47,920 --> 01:05:49,760
I'm enjoying the work that I'm
doing.

1051
01:05:50,800 --> 01:05:53,320
I hope to continue to be
involved at the state level, at

1052
01:05:53,320 --> 01:05:55,600
the national level.
I, I, I'm not doing a lot of

1053
01:05:55,600 --> 01:05:58,080
national boards right now.
I'm taking a break from that,

1054
01:05:58,080 --> 01:06:02,880
which I don't mind, but I may
sort of return to that in some

1055
01:06:02,880 --> 01:06:06,080
way, you know, just kind of see
where, see where that goes.

1056
01:06:06,800 --> 01:06:09,240
As far as performing.
I'm, I'm really right now

1057
01:06:09,240 --> 01:06:12,840
performing in church.
I can't think of any sort of big

1058
01:06:12,840 --> 01:06:15,920
gigs I got coming up.
So sorry, I can't point you to

1059
01:06:15,920 --> 01:06:21,320
anything.
And am am I speaking in

1060
01:06:21,560 --> 01:06:25,440
engagements at this stage are
are are limited.

1061
01:06:25,760 --> 01:06:30,160
I just don't have the time to,
to, to, to, to do as you do and

1062
01:06:30,160 --> 01:06:33,440
run all over the country, the
planet, you know, speaking at,

1063
01:06:33,560 --> 01:06:36,760
at these various events.
I'm laughing.

1064
01:06:38,720 --> 01:06:40,600
Don't do too much running these
days.

1065
01:06:42,600 --> 01:06:46,240
I'm still doing some writing.
I just, I have a piece and and

1066
01:06:46,240 --> 01:06:48,160
maybe I'll share this link with
you at some point.

1067
01:06:49,200 --> 01:06:52,840
I have great colleagues who sort
of will pull me into projects

1068
01:06:52,840 --> 01:06:55,160
from time to time.
And my colleague I mentioned

1069
01:06:55,160 --> 01:06:58,160
Doctor Margarita Bianco before,
who I've known a long time.

1070
01:06:58,160 --> 01:06:59,720
She's on the faculty year at CU
Denver.

1071
01:07:00,280 --> 01:07:04,360
And we she's been doing this
work and I've been doing this

1072
01:07:04,360 --> 01:07:09,000
work with her around
understanding teacher diversity,

1073
01:07:09,000 --> 01:07:11,600
but also understanding how we
promote and advanced diverse

1074
01:07:11,600 --> 01:07:15,000
educators.
And so we did a kind of analysis

1075
01:07:15,000 --> 01:07:18,920
of what's happened around policy
wise in Colorado.

1076
01:07:20,120 --> 01:07:25,920
And we worked with Conrad Gist
at the University of Houston,

1077
01:07:26,280 --> 01:07:30,640
who is really interested in like
understanding state policy and

1078
01:07:30,640 --> 01:07:33,360
now state policy advances,
teacher diversity and asked us

1079
01:07:33,360 --> 01:07:36,520
if we would work with her on his
broader project through the

1080
01:07:36,520 --> 01:07:40,160
National School Board's group to
better to understand what's

1081
01:07:40,160 --> 01:07:42,880
happened in Colorado.
And so we took a really clean

1082
01:07:42,880 --> 01:07:47,280
look, clear, clear look at
what's happened here and wrote a

1083
01:07:47,280 --> 01:07:50,680
piece about it and published it
in this National School board's

1084
01:07:50,680 --> 01:07:53,080
journal recently.
So I'm really proud of that,

1085
01:07:53,080 --> 01:07:55,120
right?
So that because it's what's

1086
01:07:55,120 --> 01:07:58,280
interesting, what was
interesting about that is

1087
01:07:58,640 --> 01:08:02,320
because of the work I've been
doing at the state level, policy

1088
01:08:02,320 --> 01:08:04,480
is something that's not quite
close to me, right?

1089
01:08:04,480 --> 01:08:09,800
And so I, I recognize that even
though I'm not a policy scholar

1090
01:08:10,720 --> 01:08:13,560
and I've never really been a,
consider myself a policy expert,

1091
01:08:13,560 --> 01:08:17,439
I'm deeply engaged in policy
work through to the leadership

1092
01:08:18,080 --> 01:08:21,560
of some of those committees and
advancing policy and, and trying

1093
01:08:21,560 --> 01:08:25,240
to advance policy that actually,
you know, makes a difference.

1094
01:08:25,640 --> 01:08:29,960
And so I was able to reflect on
that experience and, and I also

1095
01:08:29,960 --> 01:08:33,000
have an understanding of the,
the sort of leadership

1096
01:08:33,000 --> 01:08:36,080
infrastructure at the state
level and how that either

1097
01:08:36,080 --> 01:08:39,560
advances or doesn't advance
teacher diversity.

1098
01:08:39,560 --> 01:08:43,120
And we were able to talk about
that in this piece that came out

1099
01:08:43,279 --> 01:08:45,880
within the last year or so.
Really proud of that.

1100
01:08:46,200 --> 01:08:49,359
To see my work go from kind of
highly theoretical work that's

1101
01:08:49,359 --> 01:08:53,960
focused on classrooms to really
looking at policy around teacher

1102
01:08:53,960 --> 01:08:57,160
diversity and actually talking
about what's actually happening

1103
01:08:57,160 --> 01:09:00,359
in my state and publishing that
out of to to a broader audience.

1104
01:09:00,359 --> 01:09:03,840
So, so I'll continue to do that
type of work when those

1105
01:09:03,840 --> 01:09:06,840
opportunities exist.
And then I appreciate doing work

1106
01:09:06,840 --> 01:09:09,560
that actually is based on what's
happening in real time.

1107
01:09:11,120 --> 01:09:14,560
So, Doctor Lane, I want to thank
you for this opportunity to

1108
01:09:14,560 --> 01:09:18,479
learn with and from you here at
Add Up Accelerated Excellence,

1109
01:09:18,840 --> 01:09:21,880
where we seek to advance
educational excellence and

1110
01:09:21,880 --> 01:09:24,840
equity.
Thank you so much for having me.

1111
01:09:25,840 --> 01:09:29,120
Thank you for engaging with Add
Up Accelerated Excellence, a

1112
01:09:29,120 --> 01:09:32,960
member of the Add Up Experience
network of educational podcasts.

1113
01:09:33,399 --> 01:09:36,080
You can find this in other
episodes on Spotify,

1114
01:09:36,200 --> 01:09:40,319
iHeartRadio, Apple Radio,
YouTube, and other outlets where

1115
01:09:40,319 --> 01:09:42,520
you listen to your favorite
podcasts.

1116
01:09:43,160 --> 01:09:47,200
If you like this episode, don't
forget to follow us and share

1117
01:09:47,200 --> 01:09:50,720
within your network.
To leave a comment or suggest a

1118
01:09:50,720 --> 01:09:54,680
guest, contact us online at EDUP
xe.com.

1119
01:09:54,840 --> 01:09:58,320
A special thanks to our research
assistant, Emma Worthington, a

1120
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pH D student of Fordham
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